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12/05/2008, 17:04 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Wind turbines - Blots on the landscape !!!!!!! I like mine - it's just a little more interesting to watch than Solar. Even my wife who thought it would look out of place thinks it blends in rather well. Still, each to their own. I think you have really hit the keyword re Solar for any heating application - 'supplemented'. That said, despite supplying such products I have my reservations about the cost vs return. Depends on your motives I guess. Personally I like Biomass (wood) but then I would, wouldn't I. We do seem to have an abundance here in France Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

12/05/2008, 17:08 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,343 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Steve: I'm not a supporter of wind turbines (have stated that previously): I remain very cynical about total costs and personally doubt they can actually demonstrate a payback point on the capital cost, plus maintenance, plus land rents etc. Apparently the Commune receives cash; as do the farmers who agree to have them sited on their land. There are also EU grants I believe. The very scenically pretty areas around the Septe Vallees on the Cote d'Opal have been ruined by these awful objects: luckily, thus far, whilst we can see a bit of one from the front perspective, we see nothing from the rear (which is  one of the main reasons we bought the house, 'cos it's like looking out over the Sussex South Downs). More appear each and every time we return. GSH: yes boreholes are expensive: Slinkies are not. However, I was put off by two realities. GSH is not really viable with wet rads, rather than wet UFH. The capital cost is far too high. I'm also looking at gasification: trouble is wood prices are rising around us, due to demand. Plus the capital cost for a decent wood gasifier is significant and you still need a thermal store anyway!   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 18:51 powerdesal Joined on 07/01/2006 Fujeirah, U.A.E Posts 2,241 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Sorry GS, I should have remembered that you were not a wind turbine fan. I cant disagree with the wet rad / GSH comment, my thoughts entirely. Whilst the capital cost of a gasifiation boiler is substantial, plus the heatstore of course, I think the economics are reasonable. The Atmos 20kw unit with a 2000l heat store seems a reasonable mix for my heat load although perhaps the 25kw unit may be a better option giving surplus scope for the future. The total capital cost of c.GBP 5000 is not an unreasonable figure IMHO (for the system based on 20kw). Of course there are installation and ancilliary control costs to factor in. My theory of high output burn to a super-insulated heat store (akvaterm in an insulated "room within a room") with the CH pump taking from the heat store seems to indicate a recharge of not more than once per day or even once per two days if the days are not too cold. Sunny winter days should give a reasonable supplement from evac tube solar. I agree that wood prices are rising but gasification seems to be the most efficient way of using wood, which is after all a renewable resource. The possibility of Heures Cruese(sp) top up also exists with a fitting to the heat store. As has been said before, the basic requirement of any system is comprehensive insulation to keep the heat that you are paying for in the places that you need  it. Insulation has to be the most cost effective DIY thing anyone can do. Steve Fujeirah Emirate, U.A.E + 50 (in France) ...........................................................................    Report

12/05/2008, 20:10 Gyn_Paul Joined on 23/08/2004 La Creuse - God's own Dept. Posts 1,227 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort I've trawlled back through this and other threads, not to mention the other relevant sites and I'm stumped. I know it's here somewhere but I just can't find it. So someone PLEASE help me. I'm trying to calculate the size of thermal store which is practicable (cost/size/availability/etc), and need to work out something quite simple: How much heat can I store in/get out of a 2000L store ? I'm thinking of the next size up Atmos (35Kw), and hoping not to have to get 2 x 2000 L stores to make the most of it. paul "Don't think of them as problems, think of them as opportunities." "OK, I think I've hit an insurmountable opportunity!"    Report

13/05/2008, 12:50 powerdesal Joined on 07/01/2006 Fujeirah, U.A.E Posts 2,241 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort  Gyn_Paul wrote: I've trawlled back through this and other threads, not to mention the other relevant sites and I'm stumped. I know it's here somewhere but I just can't find it. So someone PLEASE help me. I'm trying to calculate the size of thermal store which is practicable (cost/size/availability/etc), and need to work out something quite simple: How much heat can I store in/get out of a 2000L store ? I'm thinking of the next size up Atmos (35Kw), and hoping not to have to get 2 x 2000 L stores to make the most of it. paul A "quick and dirty" calculation shows that using a 'useable' temperature range of 25 degC (90 out, 65 return) some 58 kwhr of energy can be stored in a 2000l cylinder. In other words, if your heat load is 30 kw, you have two hours - ish. Specifically:  752400000 joules for 2000l raised from 0 degC to 90 degC, which is a bit academic really. edit. Is there any way of doing superscripts on the message panel.-  ie 752.4 x 10 superscript 6  ? Steve Fujeirah Emirate, U.A.E + 50 (in France) ...........................................................................    Report

14/05/2008, 9:36 bejay Joined on 19/05/2005 Posts 106 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort  powerdesal wrote: edit. Is there any way of doing superscripts on the message panel.-  ie 752.4 x 10 superscript 6  ? For these purposes most people settle for 752.4 x 10^6. Otherwise you have to develop a Latex fetish ;-) bj    Report

31/08/2008, 17:13 Tibblington Joined on 24/08/2008 Posts 4 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort I may be a bit late with this advice but I will pass it on all the same as there will be someone else asking a similar question. Before you consider underfloor heating you need to consider the weather conditions where you are living because there is a deal of inertia in the system especially if the pipes are buried in the screed.  Generally speaking you can't expect a response time of less than 36 hours which is not a lot of use if you suddenly get a very cold snap followed by warmer weather.  Moreover if the system kicks in during this brief cold spell you have heat that you have created and don't need 24 hours later.  For those with properties in the north of France perhaps underfloor is worth considering but further south Charente, Dordogne and south of that I would NOT suggest under floor heating.  You need a system with less inertia and a shorter response time.  Ideally warm air as this has a response time as short as 15 minutes but otherwise we are talking about a radiating surface.  Both of these systems could be made to work well from a solar collector but you would need a substantially sized insulated water storage tank to act as an accumulator. I have a very effective warm air system which does have a response time of 15 minutes - the plumber who helped with the installation was astonished how effective it was as he had never seen a system like it before.  I am running on oil but am going to install a solar collector to heat the domestic water 12 months of the year.    Report

31/08/2008, 17:57 Poppy Joined on 23/08/2004 Lost in the UK Posts 607 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort We have electric (from EDF) underfloor heating in the form of a cablemat directly under the tiles on the ground floor and carbonmat directly under the wood on the first floor. There is insulation under both so we find it heats instantly and very easy to control. Our thoughts are that it was cheap to install and run and soooooo convenient.    Report

31/08/2008, 19:42 Jonzjob Joined on 23/08/2004 Nr Carcassonne, 11 Posts 3,008 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort  Tibblington wrote: I may be a bit late with this advice but I will pass it on all the same as there will be someone else asking a similar question. Before you consider underfloor heating you need to consider the weather conditions where you are living because there is a deal of inertia in the system especially if the pipes are buried in the screed.  Generally speaking you can't expect a response time of less than 36 hours which is not a lot of use if you suddenly get a very cold snap followed by warmer weather.  Moreover if the system kicks in during this brief cold spell you have heat that you have created and don't need 24 hours later.  For those with properties in the north of France perhaps underfloor is worth considering but further south Charente, Dordogne and south of that I would NOT suggest under floor heating.  You need a system with less inertia and a shorter response time.  Ideally warm air as this has a response time as short as 15 minutes but otherwise we are talking about a radiating surface.  Both of these systems could be made to work well from a solar collector but you would need a substantially sized insulated water storage tank to act as an accumulator. I have a very effective warm air system which does have a response time of 15 minutes - the plumber who helped with the installation was astonished how effective it was as he had never seen a system like it before.  I am running on oil but am going to install a solar collector to heat the domestic water 12 months of the year. Carcassonne is not far from being as far South as you can get in France. We have LPG fired wet UFH that was installed when the house was built in 1982 so I assume that it is in a screed. We have no qualms about the lovely heating we have and in the 3 years we have lived her the only problem was with the old original very inefficient boiler. We now, since December last, have a new condensing boiler with the asociated control system and it was even better through last winter. We didn't even worry about switching the system of last spring because when it warmed up the heating switched off automatically. As for warm air heating a heating eng friend of mine in England told me a long while back that it had fallen out of vouge because it had moving air and that on it's own caused a small amount of chill factor and the air temp had to be a bit higher to supliment this, thus knocking down the efficiency. A friend also had it in his new house in the early 70s and said that he would never consider it again because he had suffered with very dry eyes from the time he had the house. I think that I will stick with my UFH right down here slightly further South than St Tropez thank you!! I nearly forgot to add that our warm up time is about 12 to 14 hours and we both LOVE the warm floors and the general feeling of comfort, not heat, comfort, through the winter!!! John. I am certain that there is too much certainty in the world!    Report

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