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23/08/2009, 8:20 Nick Trollope Joined on 23/08/2004 Broons, Dept 22 Posts 2,690 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing I'm reluctant to get embroiled in this (having added my 1.2 new pee to another thread), however; A devis is very much a fixed-price quotation. It cannot be varied, except with the (written, technically) agreement of both parties. A Tribunal would only expect an Artisan to do what was listed on the devis. Dissatisfaction is never seen as a reason to withhold substantial amounts. Unless the Expert was appointed by the Tribunal, his evidence is going to be regarded with suspicion. As I have said before, there are set procedures for all things in France. Fail to follow them at your peril! (And the civil legal system has little to do with EU law, so don't expect a "UK" approach to work).   Nick www.aplaceinfrance.com    Report

23/08/2009, 11:35 Boiling a frog Joined on 06/09/2004 16 Posts 901 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing  Luvarmagnac wrote: Oh dear. Drawing a picture time? The suggestion that we should should initiate proceedings against him when we had not paid him fully and incur legal costs whilst "in pocket" is I would say daft. However now that it has come to legal action initiated by him, I/we are quite prepared to accept the legal route ie building inspector, Tribunal etc, since, as I said, I have just discovered the documents I thought I had, including original devis, stating all pipework to be, wait for it "HIDDEN" or underfloor, and a letter fax 5months from original "agreed" start date, saying his son was doing the pipework over new year. Oops - no Siret! Bi - polar and extremely psychotic! When did Picardie move to Sussex?   Unfortunately what you consider ""Daft"" is the proper and legal route in France. You will get absolutely nowhere spouting European Law ,the French Civil Law system is the system in operation in France, just as the English system (totally different) operates in England.   It's no exaggeration to say that the undecideds could go one way or another George H W Bush 1988    Report

23/08/2009, 12:10 BJSLIV Joined on 23/08/2004 Posts 2,830 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing If your devis said that all the pipework was to be hidden then clearly this would have strengthened your case at the time. Unfortunately you are now on the defensive because you are also in the wrong. The procedure in France is roughly...........(Everything in writing , registered letters etc etc) If something is wrong with an artisan's work. Reject Work   complete written statement of what is wrong. Offer opportunity to correct work. Involve Expert Offer opportunity to correct work within set time frame. Make claim via Court and/or the artisan's insurance company. All this must be started within two years of completion. If you withhold any money , as set allowed for under the original contract (5%)   this must be held by a third party, eg a notaire,  until the legal process is completed.. These complexities are foreign to us Brits, and underlined the importance of handling such matters through your Protection Juridique.          Report

24/08/2009, 7:31 Aly Joined on 23/08/2004 Posts 92 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing I agree with BJSLIV assessment of process! The only thing I would add is that we had alot of plumbing work done and our devis did not specify that the pipework had to be hidden, but it was. You cannot think of every aspect of a job to include on a devis. Secondly I don't think you should lower expectations because of someone's nationality. None of my French friends have pipes running across ceilings! We had problems with a decorator who applied chaux on our walls and the colour went spotty. After being told this is normal then being abused verbally for being English, we threatened him with our Jusistique. He backed down we gave him a deadline and he corrected all the work. He then deliberately messed the beams and the floor with limepaint as some petty act, and again we did the same he had to come back red faced to clean it off. France has the highest rate in Europe of use of tribunals. Many builders and others will not want to go down that route or even use there insurance unless they have the time and confidence. Its simpler to spend a day or two putting it right.    Report

14/11/2009, 14:59 Jay Joined on 26/09/2007 Posts 291 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing It would be interesting to know how this dispute was resolved (or otherwise) Luvarmagnac.    Report

15/11/2009, 7:34 dragonrouge Joined on 08/02/2008 Posts 626 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing I come to this late and with my lawyers hat on. It is always the better route to negotiate and sort things out unless the use of the legal process is the last resort. However negotiation normally takes place within days if not hours of a problem occurring. At this stage this is beyond all possibility. Forget absolutely the system here it is nothing like our civil law and we might be upset that our English Civil Law system does not hold sway here but that is life. If more people negotiated and one of the parties said sorry and resolved the issues (if possible) then you would not have lawyers.    Report

22/02/2010, 21:31 Saucedecochon Joined on 22/02/2010 Posts 14 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing I happen to know that (being in a former life Luvarmagnac the OP?) the matter. is in limbo. The last shot fired was reminding the company acting for Monsieur Plombier, that the original devis does in fact state pipework hidden ( encastre), and that the work was done by an unqualified family member with no Siret. An offer was also made to settle in full all outstanding money on the facture once the work was completed by a qualified plumber (even the plumber himself), taking into account removal of unsatisfactory work, replacement to originally agreed and devi'd standard, repair, re-plastering and repainting of affected walls/ceilings etc, together with any loss of rental monies from the now "gite". Oh the building inspector was less than impressed. Pays to play hardball. We get job done he gets money.    Report

23/02/2010, 21:54 NormanH Joined on 10/04/2008 Posts 1,967 Re: Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing "Pays to play hardball. We get job done he gets money. " One assumes from this very English statement that that the work has been done. Has it? If not it is too early to crow..    Report

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France ForumLegal and Finan...French Legal Is...Legal Demand for Payment for Unfinished Overcharged Shoddy Plumbing

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