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12/05/2008, 12:24 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,342 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Marc: Oil companies such as Shell and BP have a sort of token investment in alternative technologies. For me, this is simply a sop to the green lobby, whilst they continue to rape the globe's resources. http://greenroofs.wordpress.com/2007/05/24/solar-power-to-enhance-green-roofs/ http://www.suntech-power.com/ Whiulst the USA leads certain areas of semiconductor research and development, increasingly Asian companies such as Samsung are spending far greater proportions of Gross Revenues on pure research and development. Asia now leads the world in silicon laydown and fab. We have a current sort of pre-conception that PVs and indeed Evac Tube Arrays need to be mounted on roofs: they don't, of course, and if one has the space, ground mounted arrays, with sun-following servo motors are superior: difficult to rotate your house from AM to PM! One of the great management gurus I studied, Theodore Levett, told the story of the board of a US railroad corporation assembling for a meeting in the 1930s. before the formal board meeting commenced, the President asked the members to consider and answer one salient question: "What business are we in?" After a due pause, one Director said, "Why! We're in the railroad business!" "Wrong!" said the President, "We're in the transportation business. And because we think we're in the railroad business, well that's precisely why we're going bankrupt!" The new kid on the block was the airplane; and increasing numbers wanted to fly from one end of the States to the other, rather than take days on a train. Oil and gas companies are in the energy business: it ought to have been such as Exon with their obscene wealth who led the charge into solar, fuel cells and other new energy areas. Simply because they did not, they, like many other major corporations will gradually vanish as fossil fuels exhaust: and I for one will be cheering! Same happened with such as British Steel: they were in the materials business and ought to have invested heavily in the good days in such areas as ceramics: like Japan did! Modern automotive engines will probably (Extra High Temp - Lean Burn) have ceramic bore liners and pistons, able to withstand the incredibly high working temps. With energy, cheap supplies from the Mid East has led both Europe and the USA into a sort of cloud cuckoo land of profligate over-consumption: larger and larger gas guzzlers like the appallingly gross Chelsea Tractors; and homes and buildings where the solution to cold is to throw increasingly large amounts of heat into the building and let it escape through windows, doors and roofs.     "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 13:35 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Interesting comments especially regards the pre-conception that solar has to be mounted on a roof. Perhaps this is in part due to the net metering rates for electricity via PV which is 0.55 centimes for roof mounted PV and only 0.30 centimes for ground mounted so everbody automatically thinks 'the roof it is then''. Unfortunately, as you rightly eluded to previously regards system components, the cost vs return of a commercially available tracking system is questionable. Mind you, for solar thermal todays controllers can accomodate orientations other than solar south with reasonable efficiency. Here's an interesting snippet: In France, for instance, dwelling and office buildings output around 90 million tons of CO2 per year, out of a total of 385 million tons. The aim of the national “Climate 2004” plan is to divide France's emissions by four by the beginning of 2050, and promote the use of solar and other renewable energies. However, few economic players seem interested, whether they be consultants, research departments, manufacturers, or installers. “In the 1970s there were as many as 60-70 manufacturers of solar thermal collectors. There are considerably fewer today,” If I had to place a long term bet it would be on hybrid-thermal (PV/T) systems - but it's just going to need the right level of investment from industry / government. I believe it's a French chap leading some of this research? Lastly, I couldn't agree with your last point more - this point will in fact be the first article in a series for a national newspaper. Whole house energy audit and efficiency plan etc. Have we strayed off the subject of the initial post a little? Will this be the longest thread on the forum? Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

12/05/2008, 14:27 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,342 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Marc: Personally, I feel this is critically important! When Mrs Gluey and I bought our French house, heating oil was circa 30 cents/Litre: now it is circa three times the cost. I am amazed at just how many people are not using their CH systems, simply because they cannot afford the cost. Thus those planning on moving to France should factor into their TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), alternative heating systems. Fortunately, France has a head start on most with its extensive nuclear programme: additionally, Pas de Calais is sprouting wind turbines like Dragon's Teeth! Not being a full-time resident, as yet, whilst I planned on oil-fired CH, I have prevaricated, gone through pretty deep research into wood pellets and other bio-mass energy sources and am now probably focused on electricity on cheap rate (Heures Creuse) charging a large thermal store, with evac tube top up. I've discounted UFH from ground source as whilst it's good for a new build or barn conversion (e.g.) the sheer dislocation cost for an old established property is not really viable. We have gone over this a number of times: worth a search through this forum area. What is really needed to galvanise solar, is a government looking at the much longer term, rather than the next election: that said, France has been far more forward looking than most European states, hence the forward planning and investment in trains and the TGV, the peage and autoroute systems and of course, nuclear electricity. Difficult for a state to go head-to-head with its own asset, however now that France the state has severely diluted its own shares in both Total and Elf-Acquitaine (since the 80s/90s) no reason for a major push into solar, with seriously significant tax credits and grants (plus EU funds) for R & D. With copious solar energy from Paris, going  South  I have a feeling that France like Spain, Greece and Portugal will soon take the initiative.   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 14:54 jxedwards Joined on 07/11/2004 Lot, South Wales Posts 131 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Gluestick, I tend to agree with you on most of your comments. However before you wish the demise of XomShellBP Oil Co ACME Inc please wait another 3/4 years til we have finished our place!!!!   Back to the subject based on our UK conservatory experience UFH a big thumbs up and will be installed in Le Presbytere in the next 12 months using either a Rayburn or Villager wood burner as the source. John    Report

12/05/2008, 15:11 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort I admire your passion for the subject and wish all customers did a similar amount of research. It's a very contraversial subject, but I have to admit that one of the reasons we tend to like Electric UFH is because of Frances substantial use of Nuclear for electricity production - i.e. very low carbon footprint when compared to coal etc. As regards the oil situation we too have friends that are not using (or at least severely limiting) the use of their oil fired central heating systems. That said, (and its genuinely not intended as advertising), we WILL have a product guaranteed to reduce Oil / Gas / LPG consumption dramatically very soon. The friends I mention have volunteered to be our resident data collection site for this product. The purpose of mentioning this is that we would like to try and obtain either TVA relief or Tax Credits for customers on these products and ADEME etc are not playing ball. It is obviously not in the interests of the Oil / other companies and we certainly won't be taking on BP, Shell, etc etc. So, any ideas or help in this matter greatly appreciated. It really is in everybodies interest. The idea of a thermal store is probably sound as you suggest the solar will provide a 'top up'. For this I agree - but only as a 'top up'. A thermal store of any significance is large both in size and volume so too much for solar on it's own. I also agree re Geothermal. It is costly and disruptive - vertical bore holes seem to cost much more here than in the UK which greatly surprised me. Personally, for a new build or conversion I would opt for a Canadian / Provencal well before GSHP/ASHP. Very cheap to incorporate and if driven by a Solar PV fan system then a real winner. As for TCO then insulate, insulate, insulate - in that order and if you need it to be eco friendly then sheeps wool, recycled paper etc etc. I actually suspect some of the incentives will be reduced soon vis a vis the anticipated reduction in net metering prices and the tax credit scheme ending in 2009 - that said even this is something of a scam and suppliers are certainly not telling the truth about these. ADEME cannot (will not?) comment on what, if anything will replace the scheme so we shall have to wait and see. Again I hope you are right about France taking some sort of initiative but I remain sceptical. There are still many 'jobs for the boys' schemes which only serve to increase product costs with Qualisol being a prime example. Regards Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

12/05/2008, 16:28 powerdesal Joined on 07/01/2006 Sharjah U.A.E Posts 2,017 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort  Gluestick wrote: Fortunately, France has a head start on most with its extensive nuclear programme: additionally, Pas de Calais is sprouting wind turbines like Dragon's Teeth! Not being a full-time resident, as yet, whilst I planned on oil-fired CH, I have prevaricated, gone through pretty deep research into wood pellets and other bio-mass energy sources and am now probably focused on electricity on cheap rate (Heures Creuse) charging a large thermal store, with evac tube top up. I've discounted UFH from ground source as whilst it's good for a new build or barn conversion (e.g.) the sheer dislocation cost for an old established property is not really viable. GS, We have spoken in the past at length about heating alternatives, I will be really dissappointed if you are a supporter of those "blots on the landscape" known as wind turbines. Contrary to your focus on electricity, I am seriously tending towards log gasification backed up or rather supplemented by evac tube solar. I totally agree about GS heat pumps, mainly on cost of boreholes, I could perhaps live with the dislocation although I am not sure SWMBO would appreciate the destruction of her veggie garden, albeit temporarily-ish. I totally agree with "Insulation, Insulation, Insulation by Marc, but then I am a bit of an insulation bore, or anorak if you prefer. Steve Sharjah + 50 (in France) ........................................................................... Roll on death.....Demob is too far away.    Report

12/05/2008, 17:04 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Wind turbines - Blots on the landscape !!!!!!! I like mine - it's just a little more interesting to watch than Solar. Even my wife who thought it would look out of place thinks it blends in rather well. Still, each to their own. I think you have really hit the keyword re Solar for any heating application - 'supplemented'. That said, despite supplying such products I have my reservations about the cost vs return. Depends on your motives I guess. Personally I like Biomass (wood) but then I would, wouldn't I. We do seem to have an abundance here in France Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

12/05/2008, 17:08 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,342 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Steve: I'm not a supporter of wind turbines (have stated that previously): I remain very cynical about total costs and personally doubt they can actually demonstrate a payback point on the capital cost, plus maintenance, plus land rents etc. Apparently the Commune receives cash; as do the farmers who agree to have them sited on their land. There are also EU grants I believe. The very scenically pretty areas around the Septe Vallees on the Cote d'Opal have been ruined by these awful objects: luckily, thus far, whilst we can see a bit of one from the front perspective, we see nothing from the rear (which is  one of the main reasons we bought the house, 'cos it's like looking out over the Sussex South Downs). More appear each and every time we return. GSH: yes boreholes are expensive: Slinkies are not. However, I was put off by two realities. GSH is not really viable with wet rads, rather than wet UFH. The capital cost is far too high. I'm also looking at gasification: trouble is wood prices are rising around us, due to demand. Plus the capital cost for a decent wood gasifier is significant and you still need a thermal store anyway!   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 18:51 powerdesal Joined on 07/01/2006 Sharjah U.A.E Posts 2,017 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Sorry GS, I should have remembered that you were not a wind turbine fan. I cant disagree with the wet rad / GSH comment, my thoughts entirely. Whilst the capital cost of a gasifiation boiler is substantial, plus the heatstore of course, I think the economics are reasonable. The Atmos 20kw unit with a 2000l heat store seems a reasonable mix for my heat load although perhaps the 25kw unit may be a better option giving surplus scope for the future. The total capital cost of c.GBP 5000 is not an unreasonable figure IMHO (for the system based on 20kw). Of course there are installation and ancilliary control costs to factor in. My theory of high output burn to a super-insulated heat store (akvaterm in an insulated "room within a room") with the CH pump taking from the heat store seems to indicate a recharge of not more than once per day or even once per two days if the days are not too cold. Sunny winter days should give a reasonable supplement from evac tube solar. I agree that wood prices are rising but gasification seems to be the most efficient way of using wood, which is after all a renewable resource. The possibility of Heures Cruese(sp) top up also exists with a fitting to the heat store. As has been said before, the basic requirement of any system is comprehensive insulation to keep the heat that you are paying for in the places that you need  it. Insulation has to be the most cost effective DIY thing anyone can do. Steve Sharjah + 50 (in France) ........................................................................... Roll on death.....Demob is too far away.    Report

12/05/2008, 20:10 Gyn_Paul Joined on 23/08/2004 La Creuse - God's own Dept. Posts 1,160 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort I've trawlled back through this and other threads, not to mention the other relevant sites and I'm stumped. I know it's here somewhere but I just can't find it. So someone PLEASE help me. I'm trying to calculate the size of thermal store which is practicable (cost/size/availability/etc), and need to work out something quite simple: How much heat can I store in/get out of a 2000L store ? I'm thinking of the next size up Atmos (35Kw), and hoping not to have to get 2 x 2000 L stores to make the most of it. paul "Don't think of them as problems, think of them as opportunities." "OK, I think I've hit an insurmountable opportunity!"    Report

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