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French Finance
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 18/05/2008, 18:54
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Ron Avery
Joined on 29/11/2004
Aveyron 12
Posts 3,393
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I must agree with Jay at the moment you would have too be very unlucky to get caught.
If anyone watched France 24 yesterday "Reporters" , about illegal workers in Parius and the French attititude to them, you would have seen that the chances of anyone getting caught not paying taxes is very low.
One Cleaner in Paris was an illegal worker but she had actually gone and collected a tax form each year had paid taxes for three years but had not been identified as having no Social security number, she believed that if she had evidence of working and paying taxes for five years she could be accepted in France just shoprtt of five years in France wqorking illegally, she approached the tax office for a SS number as she wanted to join the Healthcare system and she asked the tax office what to do, they said get your employer to sort it out for you.
There were fake T de S being sold for 250€ good enough to fool an employer and Pass ports for 5000€. On one building site the boss admitted that he had lost a lot of his worke force from Mali during a raid as they had no papers but they were all back working using other people's papers. A reporter asked for a job and said he had no papers as he was an illegal and the supervisor told him to borrow somebody else's papers.
Why not post a sensible answer, people will appreciate it more
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18/05/2008, 19:09
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sweet 17
Joined on 05/08/2006
charente maritime
Posts 2,965
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I, too, am very sceptical about anyone being caught.
The worst, but not the only, case I know of involves a couple on E121 who have lived here for nearly 4 years. They have never filled in a tax form, have full CPAM cover, top-up, the lot. Naturally, they own a couple of vehicles both still on British plates.
They own a large property back in the UK , which is let for a very handy 4 -figure sum - pay no tax in UK. In receipt of state and government pensions, all very comfortable.
Last year, they asked me whether I knew how they could claim for a reduction in their taxe d'habitation as they are "only 2 old pensioners" and they thought this tax was excessive!
As I say, not by any means the only people I know who live happily and seemingly trouble-free in France without paying impots and with perfect impunity.
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18/05/2008, 19:52
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Sunday Driver
 
Joined on 07/10/2005
Deux Sevres (79)
Posts 3,172
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I wouldn't be too skeptical about it...
The 'lutte contre des frauds' has been on the political agenda for some time now. There is already information exchange between the impots, douanes, social security, more recently CAF, as well as co-operation with foreign authorities. Three weeks ago, they passed a new decree authorising the setting up of new regional and departmental agencies under the direction of the procureur de la republique tasked with the detection of fraud involving public finances and the recovery of such funds.
Remember too, that all new immigrants must register with their mairie and provide proof of sufficient resources. These registrations are reported to the prefecture, so there's no reason to believe they won't be copied to the impots....
I suspect the days of cheating expats are numbered, so just listen out for the squeels.....
Waddya mean it's only Saturday......
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19/05/2008, 9:44
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Val_2
Joined on 23/08/2004
Posts 3,178
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That is just how it was when we first came here to live permanently, all resources had to disclosed via the mairie to the local Prefecture and the Police HQ for the dept so that the Carte de Séjour could be issued when investigations had been carried out into our application. An Australian who used to live a couple of kms from us had to keep visiting the Channel Islands every three months because the authorities refused him residency here due to drug convictions years previous and for which he had not disclosed and the french woman he was living with was not married. It got difficult eventually and they all went back to Oz.
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19/05/2008, 14:13
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chessie
Joined on 11/12/2005
Dept 47
Posts 48
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Sweet 17 -
Please don't jump to conclusions about 'people not paying tax' . The people you mention in your post will most definitely be paying tax in the UK. Unless you are renting out your property privately (which is difficult if you live in France) - it is impossible to receive rental income without the tax authorities knowing because the letting agents either keep 20% of rental income or the rental is passed on to the owner gross provided a UK tax form has been completed. And the Tenants Deposit Scheme means Customs & Revenue 'match up' Landlords and tenants...and HMCR are cracking down hard on Landlords not declaring rental income....
So your couple will be paying UK tax on their rental income; and by doing so they will also be completing UK self-assessment forms...and if they have Civil Service pensions HMRC 'grab' those first as well...
So please don't make such sweeping statements - I don't believe it is possible to live in France, have UK income - and NOT be taxed on it either in the UK first or subsequently in France.
If they are avoiding the HMRC on their rental income, the tenants deposit and their pensions, then of course they're in deep trouble - but it would take nerves of steel, no morals and they'd have to be pretty astuste to completely avoid tax in the UK and France.
But I do think the idea of them trying to reduce their taxe d'habitation is just asking for trouble if they're not in the French system. If you feel so strongly about their circumstances maybe you should 'encourage' them to get it reduced !!!!
Abientot - Chessie
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19/05/2008, 14:55
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sweet 17
Joined on 05/08/2006
charente maritime
Posts 2,965
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No, Chessie, I have not been guilty of making sweeping statements at all. It's simply not my style to shoot off about things when I don't know the facts.
I know this couple and their financial circumstances quite well as they never cease to go on and on about them. They have let their properties in the UK privately, having a relative to check up for them occasionally on their tenants. The rent is paid by the tenants into a UK bank account.
They have told Newcastle that they are now living in France, therefore they were issued with their E121s. One of them is in receipt of a government pension (SERPS) and one of a state pension.
As they keep telling me, who is to know where and for how long they are in each country? They keep up their UK address for things like the DVLA and have even been back to see their GP, no questions asked. One of their tenants forward all their mail. Their pensions are paid full into the UK accounts and they only cash such money as they need in France.
They go back a few times a year, more often than not when there are problems with the rent being paid or when the cars need their yearly MOT.
If you think it's not possible to "get away" with doing all this, I invite you to think again. I assure you it's happening under the authorities' noses, no probs.
And no, I don't feel that strongly about it; that is, I think they are cheats and disgraceful to humankind but I will not wilfully "shop" them or deliberately steer them in a direction to get them into trouble. I just don't like "sneaking". But, it's no skin off my nose; I shall know soon enough when (IF) they get into trouble and come running to me to read official letters and ask for advice.
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19/05/2008, 15:52
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Ron Avery
Joined on 29/11/2004
Aveyron 12
Posts 3,393
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Sorry Chessie, but you are being totally naive if you think that there are only isolated cases of abuse.
I was going to say we must know the same people Sweet 17 but you are nowhere near me. One lot have "dissapeared" and pay nothing, no tax no health care, nothing. Flat in London rented out via family and payments banked in the UK.
Another couple have property rented out in the UK, UK GP still treats them as they use the house as UK address, tenants forward the mail, UK registered car, cash from the hole in wall and UK C/C in the supermarket, so who knows apart from their neighbours and their tenants that they live in France for 10 months in the year? When she vgets an E 121 they will " move" to France. Yes this couple pay tax in the UK, but no Sociale charges on interest received nor CMU payments which they should have been paying as they left the UK permanently years ago.
Over the many years that I holidayed in France, few of the payments for the gites went to France, most to relatives in the UK, some owners even took their cars to the UK to get MOT'd so as not to register any presence in France and to avoid tax and healthcare payments, had the E111 for emergencies and dentist visit while getting car Mot'd in Dover.
Why not post a sensible answer, people will appreciate it more
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19/05/2008, 16:01
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sweet 17
Joined on 05/08/2006
charente maritime
Posts 2,965
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Ron, you mean we move in the same social circles? Joking apart, as you have pointed out, we live miles apart and know of the same sort of people. Therefore, they must be all over the damn place, must they not?
I have given up trying to tell people they should fill in their tax forms, re-register their cars, whatever. The threatened crackdown has yet to happen. I see people getting away with all these illegal practices on a weekly basis and some even boast about it.
It's totally immoral, of course, apart from being illegal. I fear, however, that honesty these days is seen as some sort of optional extra and certainly lots of people seem to do very well in life without worrying too much about it.
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France Forum » Legal and Finan... » French Finance » Re: no tax in france
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