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18/05/2008, 19:52 Sunday Driver Joined on 07/10/2005 Deux Sevres (79) Posts 2,752 Re: no tax in france I wouldn't be too skeptical about it... The 'lutte contre des frauds' has been on the political agenda for some time now.  There is already information exchange between the impots, douanes, social security, more recently CAF, as well as co-operation with foreign authorities.  Three weeks ago, they passed a new decree authorising the setting up of new regional and departmental agencies under the direction of the procureur de la republique tasked with the detection of fraud involving public finances and the recovery of such funds. Remember too, that all new immigrants must register with their mairie and provide proof of sufficient resources.  These registrations are reported to the prefecture, so there's no reason to believe they won't be copied to the impots.... I suspect the days of cheating expats are numbered, so just listen out for the squeels.....     Waddya mean it's only Saturday......    Report

19/05/2008, 9:44 Val_2 Joined on 23/08/2004 Posts 3,055 Re: no tax in france That is just how it was when we first came here to live permanently, all resources had to disclosed via the mairie to the local Prefecture and the Police HQ for the dept so that the Carte de Séjour could be issued when investigations had been carried out into our application. An Australian who used to live a couple of kms from us had to keep visiting the Channel Islands every three months because the authorities refused him residency here due to drug convictions years previous and for which he had not disclosed and the french woman he was living with was not married. It got difficult eventually and they all went back to Oz.    Report

19/05/2008, 14:13 chessie Joined on 11/12/2005 Dept 47 Posts 41 Re: no tax in france Sweet 17  - Please don't jump to conclusions about 'people not paying tax' . The people you mention in your post will most definitely be paying tax in the UK.  Unless you are renting out your property privately (which is difficult if you live in France) - it is impossible to receive rental income without the tax authorities knowing because the letting agents either keep 20% of rental income or the rental is passed on to the owner gross provided a UK tax form has been completed. And the Tenants Deposit Scheme means Customs & Revenue 'match up' Landlords and tenants...and HMCR are cracking down hard on Landlords not declaring rental income.... So your couple will be paying UK tax on their rental income; and by doing so they will also be completing UK self-assessment forms...and if they have Civil Service pensions HMRC 'grab' those first as well... So please don't make such sweeping statements - I don't believe it is possible to live in France, have UK income - and NOT be taxed on it either in the UK first or subsequently in France. If they are avoiding the HMRC on their rental income, the tenants deposit and their pensions, then of course they're in deep trouble - but it would take nerves of steel, no morals and they'd have to be pretty astuste to completely avoid tax in the UK and France. But I do think the idea of them trying to reduce their taxe d'habitation is just asking for trouble if they're not in the French system.  If you feel so strongly about their circumstances maybe you should 'encourage' them to get it reduced !!!! Abientot - Chessie    Report

19/05/2008, 14:55 sweet 17 Joined on 05/08/2006 charente maritime Posts 2,045 Re: no tax in france No, Chessie, I have not been guilty of making sweeping statements at all.  It's simply not my style to shoot off about things when I don't know the facts. I know this couple and their financial circumstances quite well as they never cease to go on and on about them.  They have let their properties in the UK privately, having a relative to check up for them occasionally on their tenants.  The rent is paid by the tenants into a UK bank account. They have told Newcastle that they are now living in France, therefore they were issued with their E121s.  One of them is in receipt of a government pension (SERPS) and one of a state pension. As they keep telling me, who is to know where and for how long they are in each country?  They keep up their UK address for things like the DVLA and have even been back to see their GP, no questions asked.  One of their tenants forward all their mail.  Their pensions are paid full into the UK accounts and they only cash such money as they need in France. They go back a few times a year, more often than not when there are problems with the rent being paid or when the cars need their yearly MOT. If you think it's not possible to "get away" with doing all this, I invite you to think again.  I assure you it's happening under the authorities' noses, no probs. And no, I don't feel that strongly about it; that is, I think they are cheats and disgraceful to humankind but I will not wilfully "shop" them or deliberately steer them in a direction to get them into trouble.  I just don't like "sneaking".  But, it's no skin off my nose; I shall know soon enough when (IF) they get into trouble and come running to me to read official letters and ask for advice.    Report

19/05/2008, 15:52 Ron Avery Joined on 29/11/2004 Posts 3,099 Re: no tax in france Sorry Chessie, but you are being totally naive if you think that there are only isolated cases of abuse. I was going to say we must know the same people Sweet 17 but you are nowhere near me.   One lot have "dissapeared" and pay nothing, no tax no health care, nothing.  Flat in London rented out via family and payments banked in the UK.  Another couple have property rented out in the UK, UK GP still treats them as they use the house as UK address,  tenants forward the mail, UK registered car, cash from the hole in wall and UK C/C in the supermarket, so who knows apart from their neighbours and their tenants that they live in France for 10 months in the year?  When she vgets an E 121 they will " move" to France. Yes this couple pay tax in the UK, but no Sociale charges on interest received nor CMU payments which they should have been paying as they left the UK permanently years ago.  Over the many years that I holidayed in France, few of the payments for the gites went to France, most to relatives in the UK, some owners even took their cars to the UK to get MOT'd so as not to register any presence in France and to avoid tax and healthcare payments, had the E111 for emergencies and dentist visit while getting car Mot'd in Dover.   Driven away by an idiot    Report

19/05/2008, 15:54 Cerise Joined on 23/08/2004 Laguepie Tarn & Garonne Posts 695 Re: no tax in france In this area the unregistered and uncaring seem to outnumber the poor saps like us who are legal.  We have some folk down the road from us - been here for 8 years, work on the black use European Health Cards (even for very serious illness - saying they lived half of year with sister in UK).  No one seems to care and their standard of living seems higher than ours - we can't afford a nice new quad bike ot the big flat screen TV.  They aren't the only ones.  My husband has twice had 'job offers' on the black for twice what he is earning legally.  Sometimes I think we are the fools.  For all people tell me of the alleged terrible sanctions I've yet to see anything happen.  The authorities do know - even the maire said to me the other day 'Tu sais de qui je parle, ces anglais là qui travaille au noir' - but they don't seem to care. Like sweet17 I cna't get worked up enough to do anything about it and anyway if I did wouldn't I be obliged to shop all my French neighbours who work on the black too???    Report

19/05/2008, 16:01 sweet 17 Joined on 05/08/2006 charente maritime Posts 2,045 Re: no tax in france Ron, you mean we move in the same social circles?  Joking apart, as you have pointed out, we live miles apart and know of the same sort of people.  Therefore, they must be all over the damn place, must they not? I have given up trying to tell people they should fill in their tax forms, re-register their cars, whatever.  The threatened crackdown has yet to happen.  I see people getting away with all these illegal practices on a weekly basis and some even boast about it. It's totally immoral, of course, apart from being illegal.  I fear, however, that honesty these days is seen as some sort of optional extra and certainly lots of people seem to do very well in life without worrying too much about it.    Report

19/05/2008, 16:05 sweet 17 Joined on 05/08/2006 charente maritime Posts 2,045 Re: no tax in france Cerise, I think I'd rather be a fool than a dishonest "wise guy"    Report

19/05/2008, 16:13 ams Joined on 07/08/2007 Posts 273 Re: no tax in france Left the tax return into the hotel des impots this morning. Huge queue must be taking about 3 to 4 hours to see everyone. Whilst waiting in the queue for the reception (25 minutes) desk to hand in our package, we could hear many people talking in english, sounded like many there for the first time.   ams    Report

20/05/2008, 8:45 andyh4 Joined on 15/06/2005 Frankfurt and Ardèche Posts 845 Re: no tax in france  sweet 17 wrote: As they keep telling me, who is to know where and for how long they are in each country?   Their pensions are paid full into the UK accounts and they only cash such money as they need in France. They go back a few times a year, more often than not when there are problems with the rent being paid or when the cars need their yearly MOT. If you think it's not possible to "get away" with doing all this, I invite you to think again.  I assure you it's happening under the authorities' noses, no probs.   Sweet 17 you might like to disabuse them of their niaive ideas about the ability of the authorities to trace them. So lets start with what you report: 1.  Every time they make a cash withdrawl it is recorded, what, where, how much. 2.  Everytime they take a ferry, plane or the tunnel to from France to the UK, it is recorded, ticket holders names and addresses, and sometimes bank, credit card details.  When they drive the number plate of the vehicle is also photographically recorded. Now add that every time they use the phone, it is recoded from where to where.  Electricty, water, gas, oil consumption are used to prove residence.   Oh and if you ever drive on the German autobahn, your journey is tracked and recorded in detail by the system used to charge HGV tolls - cameras cannot distinguish between a car number plate and a truck number plate, so it all goes on record. OK I accept that many folk do get away with this crime (and it is a crime and we the tax payers are the ultimate victims) , but as soon as their heads appear above the parapets, the authorities have absolutely no problem in establishing exactly where they were (or where they think they were).   So all of the tools are there and are used from time to time.  The fact that they are not used more regularly is probably down to a lack of will and international cooperation.  So for example the UK tax authorities are probably best placed to identify that they are involved in fraud, but have little incentive to do anything about it since it is France that is being defauded (mostly). Andy    Report

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