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18/05/2008, 16:25 ErnieY Joined on 05/12/2006 Nr Prayssac (Lot) Posts 2,939 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread Edited - double post ! My doctor said one drink per day, I can live with that !    Report

18/05/2008, 16:56 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,273 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread The individual in this case has asked several times if he can pay NI contributions in the UK and thus qualify for a workers' E106, but the answer has been a flat no.  As the ship is registered in the Bahamas, the company is not liable to pay the employers' part of the "stamp" - as it was called back in my day - and thus, he can only pay voluntary contributions, which are fine for pensions but not a lot else.  Being resident in France, of course they cannot use the NHS, and as his wife is due for an op' in a fortnight, and has chronic health problems anyway, no insurer will cover them. They cannot join an employment scheme in France, as technically, the company is outside the EU and thus none of the mariners' rules applies either.  The only option now appears to be to pay for the op' and the wife's ongoing treatment but, as you will appreciate, in that direction, financial ruin potentially lies.  Sadly, the situation has not been helped by the fact that their former CPAM allowed them to join CMU,  and pay in, but - since a very recent move to another department here - the new CPAM is now saying that the previous one was in error.  Whether this is or is not the case is the subject for some debate, of course, but one can see why, after 3 years' of paying CMU contributions without a hitch, this has come at a terrible time for them - especially as they have only months to go before achieving 5 years' residency. This is a, frankly, heartbreaking situation and I'm running out of ideas - although there are still a few avenues which we are exploring, but time is running out.  If anybody has any bright ideas - all suggestions are gratefully received. Healthcare Issues Site    Report

18/05/2008, 17:33 Will Joined on 22/09/2004 Sussex & 50 (Mortainais) Posts 4,727 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread Cooperlola - that explains what was, quite honestly, a rather mystifying situation. It is well known in the maritime business that ship owners, operators and managers save a lot of money on taxes and social security contributions if their vessels are registered outside Europe and, as is often the case, owned and managed through foreign subsidiary companies. Certain countries are extremely lax in the standard of the ships themselves as well as employment law: most of these 'flags of convenience' are well known and ships sailing under these flags tend to be targeted by port state control inspectors when they visit many countries. For more reputable but still spendthrift operators, the Bahamas is one popular place of registration (which was frequently used by the likes of P&O before they returned to the UK flag); other flag states which allow cash to be saved without necessarily compromising safety standards include Liberia and the Marshall Islands. Seafarers are a special case in EU law, but as you say, if they are based outside the EU they cannot benefit from these concessions. I would agree that your individual's original CPAM was probably incorrect in taking contributions from somebody in that situation. Some other seafarers with families in France were, I know, included among the few people who, under the previous system, were expected to have private health assurance, as they were not eligible to join the CMU.  Edit: this link gives the EU policy on special arrangements for seafarers. http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l24189.htm Ironically, the French flag is highly attractive, as France makes very generous concessions to French shipowners employing nationals onboard their ships, such as a total refund of employer's social security charges, which is permitted under EU subsidy restrictions. Which is why Brittany Ferries tend to have French crews, unlike the multinational personnel on other operators' ships. Will intentionally blank signature http://www.vienormande.com    Report

18/05/2008, 17:43 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,273 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread Thanks Will, not hopeful, but helpful!  How then, did seafarers who had chronic and pre-existing conditions ever get private health insurance?  Or do they just pay up? Healthcare Issues Site    Report

18/05/2008, 17:49 Will Joined on 22/09/2004 Sussex & 50 (Mortainais) Posts 4,727 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread I really don't know the answer to that. I would imagine they were covered by their employers while at sea, which would reduce the risk, but permanent insurance would still be needed for their families living in France, naturally. The private insurance requirement would only apply, of course, in the case of non-European employers, as in your individual's case. Will intentionally blank signature http://www.vienormande.com    Report

18/05/2008, 19:54 ErnieY Joined on 05/12/2006 Nr Prayssac (Lot) Posts 2,939 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread You know 1000 times more than I ever will on this topic Coops so it's obviously not this simple but I understood that after 5 years continuous residence one is entitled to CMU automatically so what is preventing that in this case Did their previous CPAM let them in on the strength of an E106 refusal. Would this situation come under the 'accident de vie' provision perhaps. As I say, you're the expert and I'm sure you've already explored most avenues. As unpalatable as it may be possibly for them a return to the UK might be their best, or indeed only, option   My doctor said one drink per day, I can live with that !    Report

19/05/2008, 10:04 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,273 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread They have 8 weeks to go before the 5 years is up, Ernie, and the op' needs to be done before then.  And even then, because their new CPAM has refused to insure them for the last few months - one could argue that those few months in the last five years, could be deemed illegal, as they have had their health cover withdrawn. And what is more, we're still not convinced that CMU is the correct scheme. The problem arises because, as Will explains, they should not have been let into CMU in the first place, as he is working.  In theory, as you know, employees pay through a work based scheme instead, under normal circumstances, but for mariners, this is different.  If the ship had been under a European flag, they would be covered, but they are not.  The curse of course is that the previous CPAM did not get this, and just let them into CMU believing, rightly or wrongly, that the scheme was for those who could get no cover by any other means and they felt that this couple met the criteria.  Their new CPAM says no - and it's quite probable that they are correct. I'd be really interested to know if anybody else on here is in this situation.  This chap's shipmates are being very unhelpful in telling him what they do in this situation - I can't believe he is alone, and that this is the first person ever to have hit this particular brick wall. Healthcare Issues Site    Report

20/05/2008, 16:53 mogs Joined on 17/06/2007 Border of Lot/Dordogne Posts 82 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread As the lady in question that Cooperlola is talking about, firstly I would just like to say an enormous thank you to her, to anyone involved with French Health Issues and all the other people that have been rallying to our support, it really does mean a lot to myself and family. I hope to find a resolution, we will of course be applying for the 5 year rule after our 5 years are up so I hope that will be an end to our problem. Just out of interest, any ideas Will why this organisation (part of the social security) would not be applicable in our circumstances: http://www.cfe.fr/pages/assurances/particuliers/intro.php my French isn't up to much but my neighbour (whose French) seemed to think it would be a way round our problem. Many thanks    Report

20/05/2008, 20:15 Keni Joined on 23/08/2004 Haute Vienne/Worcs Posts 159 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread Having just picked up this thread Cooperola, is Mogs entitled to repayment of the money paid in, or is that another French mystification? Over in the Uk they do repay overpayment I believe, is it the same case in France, if the error is on the governments side? Keni & Chris    Report

20/05/2008, 22:04 Will Joined on 22/09/2004 Sussex & 50 (Mortainais) Posts 4,727 Re: Another working in the UK/ living in France thread Mogs - the organisation in your link might be worth a try, but it seems to be intended for French nationals wanting to continue their health and social security cover when going overseas, rather than for non-French looking for social security cover in France. But I hope you get the situation resolved, because something has gone wrong and it was clearly not your own error that has landed you in your position. Keni - it should be possible to reclaim money overpaid, but this isn't always easy and it would probably stand a better chance if done through an accountant or other professional rather than on a personal basis. Will intentionally blank signature http://www.vienormande.com    Report

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France Forum » Living » Earning a Livin... » Another working in the UK/ living in France thread

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