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18/04/2008, 6:15 Limousin Lass Joined on 23/01/2007 87 Near Chalus Posts 108 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Having had UFH in the bathroom and kitchen in our last house in UK I wanted to have it throughout all of the house here in France.  It is not possible to have wet UFH because of door heights etc and thickness of screed, insulation and tiles, would it be possible to instal electric UFH and would it be economical?    Report

07/05/2008, 14:41 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Just to really confuse things consider electric underfloor heating - much lower initial costs, better response as the thermocouples are fitted under the floor, and low running costs. Typically we suggest around 16 degrees for comfort heat with an additional heat source such as the trusty wood burner - this comes out better in terms of overall efficiency. It has to be said that it is also a whole lot easier to install and there is no maintenance. If used in conjunction with some form of renewable energy (solar PV, wind turbine etc) to supplement the grid electric, then the electricity from your renewable source can be usefully employed elsewhere during the warmer months. We have done the cost comparison exercise on numerous occasions and electruc UFH always comes out best. I hope that helps a little. Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

07/05/2008, 17:13 Gyn_Paul Joined on 23/08/2004 La Creuse - God's own Dept. Posts 1,164 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Are your calculations based on current oil v electric costs? and in which country ? How viable is the prospect of selling electricity bacck to the French grid ? paul "Don't think of them as problems, think of them as opportunities." "OK, I think I've hit an insurmountable opportunity!"    Report

08/05/2008, 8:19 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Calculations are based on recent case studies - last 6 months or so - so have used the Oil prices the customers were actually paying. Electric prices based upon 10 centimes per kWk from EDF so France. Selling electricity back to the grid is very viable with varied export rates based upon the type of technology used and in some cases the department. The only other factor other than buy back rates is the cost of EDF installing net metering equipment - around 800 - 1200 € as a one off. Not sure I mentioned it in this forum but the buyback rates are expected to change next year (going down of course) as with other European countries so the race is on for many to install Solar PV prior to these anticipated changes to secure the 20 year contract from EDF. Hope that answers the question Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

08/05/2008, 8:49 Gyn_Paul Joined on 23/08/2004 La Creuse - God's own Dept. Posts 1,164 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort I can't help thinking that with the poor efficiency and high capital costs/kw of pv panels, plus (at worst) needing to sell back 12,000 kwh just to cover the EDF connection charge, let alone the capital cost of the regulation kit, this is a technology with perhaps some way to go yet before it becomes a practrical proposition for most of us. Still, it's an area I shall definately keep and eye on in the coming years Ah.. just realised that the 12,000 kwh figure was based on selling back to EDF at the 10c rate. Like that would ever happen ! paul "Don't think of them as problems, think of them as opportunities." "OK, I think I've hit an insurmountable opportunity!"    Report

08/05/2008, 8:59 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Its a fair comment re the cost / efficiency of Solar PV. My view is that the cost of the technology will not decline much if at all purely because of supply and demand - there's a lot of demand. In its place it is effective and worthwhile - in its place. Horses for courses. The buy back rates are genuinely 0.55 centimes per kWh from EDF for roof mounted panels - as a rule of thumb it will take something like 10 years to get your money back. You have to take a view I guess. Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

11/05/2008, 18:30 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,342 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort  EcoPower wrote: Its a fair comment re the cost / efficiency of Solar PV. My view is that the cost of the technology will not decline much if at all purely because of supply and demand - there's a lot of demand. As has been mentioned herein before, the actual cost of the latest Photo-Voltaic cells is dropping rapidly all the time, mainly owing to mass production from China. As with most technology areas, rapidly expanding demand lowers unit costs: also as leading edge technology enters the mainstream and as more emerging economies are able to address what were previously demanding manufacturing processes, then prime unit costs fall quite dramatically. This has been the case with all semiconductors; eePROMs are perhaps the best example. What has not dropped in price thus far, are the associated control systems and the added costs for the System Integration. Integrating solar to other prime energy sources has been something of a Black Art: same with geothermal: this is now rapidly changing, however. Rather like evacuated solar, more and more suppliers and installers are entering the field fostering competition and creating commercial downards price pressures. PV will go precisely the same way as volumes are ramped up. One of the core problems to date has been technological break throughs - e.g. film circuits -  and each break through requires significant front end laydown costs, which have to be amortised. And product (and technology) life cycles have been very short as new concepts have emerged thick and fast. It is identical with each type of technology, but particularly so with semiconductors and silicon: in the early stages product life cycles are low and performance improvements come very rapidly as technology changes: and the entry costs are too rich for all but the biggest: however, once a market segment stabilises and offers serious volumes then the second tier technology manufacturers enter. PV has been the same: originally it was the big boys, such as Motorola, TI etc. Now Korea, China et al are manufacturing in volume. If one considers the basic PV arrays which are used for example in maintaining yacht batteries, the power outputs and acquisition costs have risen and fallen, respectively, quite dramatically during the past ten years. This will continue into the mainstream of both domestic and commercial energy applications.   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 8:37 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Gosh - what a response and your points are well made. My belief re cost of PV stays the same however and this belief is based predominantly upon economics and the product life cycle. My opinion is that we are only at the middle of the introduction phase in the product life cycle so still growth and maturity to come, but I suspect even this will change as new technologies are introduced thereby distracting manufacturers from focusing on current core products and how they position these in the market. As you rightly note, many of the manufacturers are based in China and the costs of shipping are increasing all the time. Additionally the costs of shipping also affects the manufacturers regards the supply of raw materials. I am told by colleagues in the far east that the cost of labour is also increasing as it did in Korea some time ago so this will affect the 'bottom line'. To further confuse things the export (buy back price of electricity rates) is expected to change (reduce) as is happening in many European countries and now also in the USA who are the largest consumer of this type of technology. Because of this the race is on for prospects to buy their PV systems to beat this expected reduction in buy back rates which will only serve to put a big 'blip' in the product life cycle curve. I think you are absolutely right when you mention the associated control systems and as I'm sure you know this area is strongly dominated by just a couple of manufacturers. If we saw a change here then that certainly would affect matters favourably. It's a difficult call but I still believe that the cost of PV will not change significantly in the near future and there are many variables which affect in this equation. All that said I sincerely hope you are right as it can only help all of us. Regards Marc. www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

12/05/2008, 10:06 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 2,342 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort As with all technologies, things move on, Marc. At present, it seems Gallium Arsenide offers certain advantages over Silicon. It is impossible to say where the market is, currently, as whilst parts are perhaps in the middle of their cycle (my earlier example Yachts e.g.), others are in their infancy, as different technologies or combinations of technologies emerge. What is clear, is the new urgency driven by insane fossil fuel prices, themselves driven by greed of major oil companies. Original PVs used Selenium: later realisations used Silicon: and then Gallium Arsenide was hailed as the new wonder substrate for a range of semiconductor devices. And now a combination of elements  and compounds are being exploited. http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2007/05/solar_energy.html Early realisations were mainly in specific application areas such as SatCom and of course, the Apollo Programme and NASA kick-started serious apps of PV for various space exploration projects, and particularly the moon landings. PV research was really going ahead rapidly when I was working for a short time in Silicon Valley, Calif.,  in the mid 80s. What has happened, as I suggested before, is that Thin Film Technology now allows very cost-effective production for both fixed and mobile arrays. Indeed, in California, amongst other places, commercial buildings are constructed where whole glass "walls" are faced with thin film PV arrays. Personally, I think the next 20 years will force ever-cheaper PV, Solar Heating and renewables (such as Bio-Mass etc) as well as huge advances in insulatation and "House Conditioning" environmental controls (sort of upmarket VMC with effective waste heat recovery) as natural fossil-based fuel costs rise out of sight, driven by rapidly increasing demand from Asia. New houses will have whole roofs of thin film PV arrays as a normal planning constraint. Interesting to me how rainwater recovery and underground storage tanks in France are quickly becoming common now: we talked about this, with Grey Water Recovery, on this site, some years back. It will be a very exciting period! Anyone working in the Renewables area like our own Pool Guy, is in for a boom era. http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PVFSCGallium_Arsenide_Solar_Cells.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cells   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

12/05/2008, 11:57 EcoPower Joined on 07/05/2008 Posts 32 Re: Is underfloor heating really worth the effort Quote: What is clear, is the new urgency driven by insane fossil fuel prices, themselves driven by greed of major oil companies. Oh how true. To compound matters, governments (the taxman) enjoy ever increasing revenues from TVA, VAT, etc levied on these sources which does dissappoint me. To rub salt into the wound, today Centrica have ''suggested'' energy prices will again increase due to continuing rises in Oil and Gas costs. Bearing in mind that Shell & BP are some of the biggest players in the Solar PV market one wonders whether this goes conflicts with their main source of revenue? I suspect Thin Film Technology may have a positive effect on the market but I believe the main USA source has some very nicely guarded patents on what seems to be a very slick production method so I wonder where they will position these products? Amorphous PV seems to be the current 'in thing' which is understandable. My colleague in Spain tells me new builds have to employ some form of solar energy system within the construction, but the vast majority of products used to comply with this requirement is Solar Thermal Syphon purely because of cost. I do hope you are right about decreasing prices for PV. Yes, interesting times ahead indeed. I hope I'm around to see it. Marc www.ecopower.eu.com Renewable Energy need not cost the Earth    Report

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