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25/02/2010, 18:59 Dog Joined on 24/08/2004 Lost in France Posts 2,593 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  dragonrouge wrote: The legal position is that the loss must flow directly from the action (causation). I had a problem some three weeks ago and I too charged my hourly rate and which is the rate that I charge my services at. I was offered just £75 no movement from the bank. Then I simply went on line through the Courts Service and issued a CC summons and I picked a rather obscure address for the bank so that it would get lost in the system. It did and I then applied for judgment the bank squealed and appealed no luck I am afraid and the District Judge found in my favour. I had my money I have done this before and also applied to be heard miles away from their head office so it is expensive for them to appear. You did well because in 3 out of four times the defendents were given another chance - one three times - or they didn't pay and appealed/applied for it to be struck out. Espouse elucidation and eschew obfuscation!    Report

25/02/2010, 19:10 Dog Joined on 24/08/2004 Lost in France Posts 2,593 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  Araucaria wrote: Dog I wish you the very best of luck. And maybe it might be best to get your retaliation in first and try dragonrouge's county court method. A more obvious example of bank incompetence would be hard to find. However one point makes me curious. Do you just take a sterling cheque drawn on your (UK?) bank down to CA and pay it in, with them fixing the exchange rate? If so, do you get a good exchange rate without massive charges? I'd not thought of trying that myself: I wasn't sure whether CA would know what to do with sterling. But please keep us informeed of the results. I just write a cheque and send it to CA Britline. I don't remember the exact charges right now but it is reasonable and sometimes they do it for no fee - though I suspect they tweak exchange rate. I have been messed around by banks big time previously and if they use their weight and size to force me into a corner I have usually found a way to get them back...lol.. they suddenly once decided I had to put my house up against my companies overdraft - I had always refused - but it was the last recession and times were against me. They sent me the forms and I didn't sign and return them and they kept reminding me - after six months they got shirty so I said OK I'll sign 'em and bring 'em down to you right now. So I signed it Mickey Mouse and took it down and met a lowly jobsworth who on being told what it was took it straight of to be filed. They had it for over 15 years and never noticed.  Don't give them a chance... Espouse elucidation and eschew obfuscation!    Report

25/02/2010, 21:32 AnOther Joined on 05/12/2006 Mer du Nord/W of Cahors (46) Posts 7,394 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour.... Not defending the banks and three cheers for anybody who can score a point against them but since when did retired mean earning anything per hour ? As fanciful as the idea is time itself has no intrinsic value and you cannot expect to be compensated for something you have not lost or a cost you did not incur. When everybody is saying the same thing it's usually time to ask if they know what they are saying.    Report

26/02/2010, 8:55 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 3,316 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  AnOther wrote: Not defending the banks and three cheers for anybody who can score a point against them but since when did retired mean earning anything per hour ? As fanciful as the idea is time itself has no intrinsic value and you cannot expect to be compensated for something you have not lost or a cost you did not incur. Absolutely correct and on point. And, back to the tenet "Strict Proof of Loss": in an injury claim I fought following an RTA, years ago, the defendant's solicitors demanded my desk diaries, appointments list, fee cost files and annual accounts, under the Discovery (Now Disclosure) protocols, which were then handed to PwC's Forensic team, for analysis of the "Loss of Earnings" part of my claim. No doubt PwC's fees were far more than the non-injury aspects of the whole claim! You can only "Lose" what you have; not what you do not. Loss, therefore, of productive paid time, must be proven: not assumed. Also remember that  a core aspect of the Small Claims Regime is that no costs may be claimed by either party, win or lose, excepting in truly unique and very rare circumstances, other than the Claim Fee for preparation of the "Pleadings" and limited legal fees for so doing.   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

26/02/2010, 17:33 dragonrouge Joined on 08/02/2008 Posts 626 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour.... Yes of course years ago it was really held that t any paperwork should be served on a limited company at its registered office so say Lloyds Gresham Street London Barclays Lombard Street and the like. Not any longer so I picked up this trick initially through my banking career! and then my career in the law. You pick an address of the bank say I do not know say Llandudno or wherever or a service centre which is better and sometimes in fairness they do pick it up but sometimes they do not. Therefore by the time they get around to it the clock is ticking. When I said three weeks in my earlier posting I meant six weeks for it takes about 28 days to get judgment. The cost was nothing in reality so I got what I wanted and some fun in so doing.    Report

26/02/2010, 21:26 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 3,316 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  dragonrouge wrote: Yes of course years ago it was really held that t any paperwork should be served on a limited company at its registered office so say Lloyds Gresham Street London Barclays Lombard Street and the like. http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part06.htm#IDARII5B Civil Procedure Rules. Part Six. 6. Company registered in England and Wales Principal office of the company; or any place of business of the company within the jurisdiction which has a real connection with the claim. Also, consider the implications of the 2006 Companies Act which came into force, finally October 2009. I would suggest, dragonrouge, you were rather fortunate: I would have defended any claim by firstly filing for any judgement to be Set Aside, paying the claimed sum into Court: and then fighting the substance: even after you had obtained Summary Judgement on the grounds that the claim had not been defended and/or counter-claimed. Since the OFT case was lost (Unfair Bank Charges), banks have girded their loins and tend to fight even smaller claims: whereas before, they would cave in and settle purely on a Cost-Benefit basis rather a matter of what was right and supportable in law. Under the current protocols for Civil Procedure Rules and the Practice Directions flowing therefrom, filing a claim in say Abergaveny against a defendant whose registered office was London, on a matter where the branch office was in say Mugstown would normally be treated as vexatious. Further to the suggestion offered by Dog, the actual Court selected by the Judge handling the matter, will be one that is convenient to both parties if private parties: and one nearest to the claimant or defendant if the, respectively, Claimant or Defendant is a person and the opposing side is a company. However and that said, a judge may well use their absolute power to determine a vexatious litigant who has employed an arcane address must attend Pre-Trial Reviews and etc in that location! Comes under the current Case Management Regime post the Wolff Reform Access to Justice et al. Use Small Claims Court and Money Claims Online by all means: but don't think for a minute  that "Losses" and "Expenses" scribbled on the back of a fag packet or serviette will have any integrity when examined.   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

26/02/2010, 22:53 Dog Joined on 24/08/2004 Lost in France Posts 2,593 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  AnOther wrote: Not defending the banks and three cheers for anybody who can score a point against them but since when did retired mean earning anything per hour ? As fanciful as the idea is time itself has no intrinsic value and you cannot expect to be compensated for something you have not lost or a cost you did not incur. You have lost something - time - and all I did was value my time, just as you would value the loss of a limb for instance in a different sort of claim. BB must think my time is worth something even if they only value it at a paltry £10 an hour. The Ombudsman hasn't got back to me yet..... Espouse elucidation and eschew obfuscation!    Report

27/02/2010, 7:53 dragonrouge Joined on 08/02/2008 Posts 626 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour.... Dear Dog I have no wish whatsoever to discuss your previous banking relationship or the need to put up your house. However a point of law if your house was indeed in joint names? Interesting I think but thats me. Have a look at Barclays Bank v O'Brien it is a Court of Appeal case 1985 and I did some work on another CA judgment later on in the raft of cases that followed the initial judgment. It deals with undue influence and the need to protect say a wife where the house is jointly owned and the need for her to receive totally independent advice especially where she was not a Director of a Company owned by her husband or a shareholder and where she received no benefit from depositing essentially the deeds of the house and where later the bank exercised or tried to exercise its security. Obviously that did not happen in your case in any event. But the Banks are now on warning and it was one of the first cases that I became involved in.    Report

27/02/2010, 8:14 Gluestick Joined on 22/03/2006 UK and Nord Pas de Calais Posts 3,316 Re: Barclays say retirees time only worth £10 per hour....  Dog wrote: You have lost something - time - and all I did was value my time, just as you would value the loss of a limb for instance in a different sort of claim. BB must think my time is worth something even if they only value it at a paltry £10 an hour. The Ombudsman hasn't got back to me yet..... When Quantum is under dispute, then each separate component of a claim is valued according to actual real loss; personal injury is very different, since what is valued in these cases is (i) Loss of Amenity: (ii) And Pain and Suffering. Now a claimant may very well suffer attendant losses in other ways: for example, he is unable to work in his garden for a finite period and has to pay someone else to do it for him. If he can prove (That word again) he was compelled to pay a third party to do essential works he would normally discharge and that he was wholly unable to do such work himself as a direct result of his injury then he would normally succeed. Any other "Consequential" losses which may flow from the core matter, must then be actually valued: if you are retired, then your income continues without interruption: if you work for yourself, for example and are incapacitated for a period, this is far different: that said, you are still bound to prove such alleged loss. A man may well say, "I charge £100/hour!". Now the key point is how many hours does he actually proveably earn £100/hour, on average? It may well be (And invariably is!) that the man would rather like to earn £100/hour: but in point of fact is fortunate to gross £50! Simply jotting down the theoretical hours lost is wholly meaningless: defendants will test actuality against theory by demanding accounting records which would either support such an assertion: or indicate it was pie in the sky!   "Yes, but that apart, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?" Gluestick    Report

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