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24/02/2008, 13:07 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,418 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating.  I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK.  This was a prison for long-term offenders who were within a short time of their release dates.  A number of the prisoners got involved in community projects and helped out with worthy causes locally.  One of these chaps (a convicted murderer who had a few months left of a 20 year sentence) used to help walk rescued greyhounds around the wood next to the field where I kept my ponies.  I regularly passed him on the way to his unpaid job, and quite often gave him a lift. The trust which the prison gave these people had a real affect on him, and he was a fascinating person to talk to.  The trust which had been given to him had made him think very seriously about what he had done and he was determined to live a good life when he got out.  I often wonder what happened to him.  I'm still alive to tell the tale anyway.... Healthcare Issues Site    Report

24/02/2008, 13:18 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) RH...................interesting, and really proves my point, inmates in prison definately don't live better than those in society, I never said they did.............have you ever been in a prison? And I agree with a lot of what he says, ie: he has, "........programs to curtail recidivism, lessons to develop, educate, train and increase self esteem" he has a program to bring femail inmates and their daughters together. These are exactly my points to Frederic and patf, but furthermore, my arguement is that the majority of antisocial people don't have to be put in prison to benefit from these regimes.......................it can be done in the community at a 3rd of the cost of keeping someone in prison. and my main point, about governments 'knee jerk' reactions............if you calculate the cost of a 'full prison' program, then surely, these resources could be better put to use in the community..........schools, community programs etc............to stop the antisocial behaviour from ever starting. Thanks for the link................having been out of the criminal justice system since 1998 , it's good to catch up on current trends..... EDIT: Just seen your post cooperlola.............that does prove something doesn't it? And I used to regularly visit East Sutton Park (female offenders prison) "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

24/02/2008, 17:42 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Having now done some research, can put some of this into perspective...................on the last known figures,(that I could find) in  England and wales there were  approximately 72,000  in prison. The prison service at the same time employed 43,000 ...............thats just over 1 and half prisoners for each member of prison staff. The costs for each prisoner (per year)  is approximately £27,000. In the late 80's I know for sure that the prison population was falling in  England and Wales (Scotland has its own figures) but due to problems of successive 'get tough' home secretaries..................of which Michael Howard was the worst, the prison population has been rising ever since. This just goes some way to prove my point....................if you put £27,000 per year for each delinquant, early intervention could have wide ranging benefits in reducing future problems including crime, accomodation, drugs,(including alcohol) and aggressive behaviour. Can you imagine the significance of future cost savings? Plus the trauma that crime causes victims, which in turn has a financial knock on affect............hospitilisation, loss of work time, insurance claims, It's a known fact...............in my circles that is, that childhood risks (to end up 'antisocial) are family criminality, Risk taking, low school acheivement, poverty and poor parenting skills. Come on do the figures..................there are people on  here who are much more financially aware than me Thinking of Ian and Gluestick in particularly...........financial wizkids going by some of your posts.   "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

24/02/2008, 17:55 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,418 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) I often think that this is one of the dangers of the way in which budgets are worked out.  If a child is a nuisance at school, these days we eject them (maybe just for a few days), often because the cost of remedial education is considered prohibitive.  Nobody seems to me to ever want to consider the knock on effect of what happens when we abandon these kids - and how much they will cost society if not properly cared for and dealt with (and I mean that in a kind way - I don't mean birching them or sending them off to borstal) whist still young enough.  I suspect (although my evidence is thin) that this has a lot to do with the fact that the budgets and financial thinking are never joined up enough.   I have a friend who is a remedial teacher in Nottingham, and all she sees are more and more budget cuts and her hours are fewer and fewer every year, whilst the number of "delinquent" children rises, as does the UK prison population. Something is really wrong here. Ultimately, imo, spend money on proper care for the young, and we will produce more caring adults for the future.  Draconian punishment once the damage is done has been well proven not to stamp out recidivsm. R/H's chap in the article is fascinating because although he speaks about punishing offenders, he also understands the value of education, rehabilition and  humanitarian contact. Whatever, there has to be a better way than the one used now in the Western world.  The current one certainly does not work and, as Artsole points out, costs us a bloomin' fortune.  Healthcare Issues Site    Report

24/02/2008, 20:03 Weedon Joined on 23/08/2004 Laval (53) Posts 1,258 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon )  cooperlola wrote: Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating.  I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK.    Oh my god Coops!  I used to live at Gills Green near Cranbrook. Anyway I digress, what about the Isle of Wight?  I went there once, seems like a hell of a swim to get away from the place.  Might be cost effective to move people from there to leave it empty for prisoners.  The present population might even be prepared to chip in to get away. Okay..okay it's only a thought.    Report

24/02/2008, 20:08 Patf Joined on 23/08/2004 SW Gers Posts 2,310 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) I wasn't really advocating the use of those punitive methods I mentioned, I only meant to point out how attitudes have changed over time and place. Currently the trend seems to be, ideally, reeducation for the offender. But many people still think that those who break the law, especially those who endanger others, should be kept out of society. This applies to some badly behaved children in schools too. And as for revenge, have you spoken to parents whose child has been abused , injured , never mind killed. They aren't so interested in rehabilitation, apart from some extreme examples of a forgiving nature. As artsole says , it's a huge subject.    Report

24/02/2008, 21:26 Frederick Joined on 19/11/2007 Vendee 85/ Dorset Posts 201 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) It now seems the governement has found an answer to overcrowding ....Prison officers and their families living in houses owned by the Prison Service  ( Married Quarters )  for which they pay rent have up to May to get out or face eviction..Their homes are going to be used to move inmates into  wearing tags as they are build close to the prisons they can be kept under supervision.   That should free up a few cells  ... The prison officer who has to find a new home for his family move the kids out of school etc  probable will not  get  a mortgage on his salery in London big enough to buy a house  so. he will have to leave the prison service  and move out of London ...or  probably go sick with stress and take early retirement ..... When they run out of these houses ....plenty of married quarters inside the wire in military establishments to evict families from  for the poor tagged prisoners .................... now I know the lunatics are in charge of the asylum !    Report

25/02/2008, 10:25 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,418 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon )  Weedon wrote:  cooperlola wrote: Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating.  I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK.    Oh my god Coops!  I used to live at Gills Green near Cranbrook.   This should go in the "small world" thread, but we lived at Flishinghurst, on the A262, so just around the corner, for 28 years.  Weird or what? Healthcare Issues Site    Report

25/02/2008, 11:25 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon )  Frederick wrote: It now seems the governement has found an answer to overcrowding ....Prison officers and their families living in houses owned by the Prison Service  ( Married Quarters )  for which they pay rent have up to May to get out or face eviction..Their homes are going to be used to move inmates into  wearing tags as they are build close to the prisons they can be kept under supervision.   That should free up a few cells  ... The prison officer who has to find a new home for his family move the kids out of school etc  probable will not  get  a mortgage on his salery in London big enough to buy a house  so. he will have to leave the prison service  and move out of London ...or  probably go sick with stress and take early retirement ..... When they run out of these houses ....plenty of married quarters inside the wire in military establishments to evict families from  for the poor tagged prisoners .................... now I know the lunatics are in charge of the asylum ! Frederick, this is a typical 'knee jerk' reaction from a government that has no idea about the real issues! Where did you see this report by the way? Weedon..............hope there's no one from the IOW on here But when you think about it, you don't really need an island to imprison someone..................a prison by definition does it already! Patf...............OK.............I withdraw my tongue in cheek remarks.................and yes, I have worked with parents whos children have been abused and killed.............not an easy task I can assure you, and yes revenge is the first reaction! And I am in total agreement, the most dangerous should be encarcerated, the problem with prison overcrowding, is that offenders who perhaps just need a community re-education program are also imprisoned under government/judicial get tough policies! Cooperlola.....................I am really pleased that you had a positive experience with someone who could be deemed by some as a 'dangerous offender' , but actually, figures prove that murderers, after release from prison, are the least likely to re-offend And on the subject of government budgets..................can you imagine if the funds for the prison population were to be put into education and remedial education.............just think about the benefit of prisonworker/prisoner ratio if it were to be transferred to teacher/pupil ratio...............even if it was 6 pupils to one teacher the future benefits could be substantial............and no more forty plus classrooms where the teachers can't cope! Kent does have a high proportion of prisons.......................not sure why, but probably because of its proximity to London? "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

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