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18/06/2009, 22:15 Gardian Joined on 15/02/2006 Gard Posts 2,042 French Legal Process My French neighbour and I were summoned to attend the Tribunal d'Instance in Uzes this morning. This forms part of a long-running dispute over an adjoining (to both of our properties) piece of land which the owner wants to build on. We don't want him to. You'll be pleased to know that I don't intend to re-play the history of all this - it's too long and boring a story. However, the legal process today was ................. well, different. The summons, served by the local huissier, stated that the plaintiff wanted the Tribunal to order an impartial survey to be carried out in order to, once and for all, delineate the boundaries. (This would enable an accurate Permis de Construire to be applied for by him). Michel and I turned up at 09.30 as instructed. 50 or so other people in the courtroom + a dozen or so avocats. In just over an hour, some 40 or so cases were dealt with by the President, a 35yo-ish woman, who wasn't in the mood to take prisoners! Most of the cases related to debts - mostly, nobody had turned up, order for payment made. The others mostly got adjourned.  One woman was heavily ticked off for something or other and had to be led away in tears.  All this in front of everybody present, with chattering amongst the avocats and 'public' going on all the time. Finally us - last but one case. Up to the bench. Plaintiff hadn't turned up, nor his avocat. "OK, on hold", says the President. Michel protests - we've had enough of this, been going on for ages, etc, etc. "Alright, a choice, it goes on ice or (with you two now as the plaintiffs) I appoint an impatial surveyor to sort this out", says the President. We chose the latter. At first, I thought that the whole business was shambolic. Late start, very public in what was for some, very personal matters, and seemingly rather indecisive.  Thinking about it more, I think that what I experienced was a series of straightforward financial judgements + 1st hearings of (potentially) more complex issues. It was probably more efficient than I gave it credit for at the time. Can't help thinking that our opponent should have been fined for not bothering to turn up, but no award seemed to have been made. Interesting experience though.             Report

19/06/2009, 8:12 PaulT Joined on 13/09/2006 Surrey & 31 (near Boulogne sur Gesse) Posts 693 Re: French Legal Process Well, the public can attend British court hearings so the only difference being that all other cases are in the room at the same time - no doubt sometimes beneficial to know what mood the President is in before your case is heard If anyone has done jury service in the UK, whilst fascinating, my experience was that productivity is not that great with early finishes and 'we may as well adjourn now for lunch before the next witness' and a nice long lunch break. Still, it is only ther taxpayer paying for this. Sounds as though the French have a production line going. Paul Was P2    Report

19/06/2009, 20:29 Chancer Joined on 16/07/2006 Picardie, Sussex Posts 4,879 Re: French Legal Process I am hoping to be in the tribunal d'instance soon but as the accused in my own long running dispute with A*A. I just wish that they would get on with it instead of sending ever escalating threatening letters and the amount claimed rising disproportionately each time. What has surprised me is just how naive/ignorant of their rights even my most intelligent French friends are, the very whisper of the word tribunal and they panic and tell me that I must pay,  (because A*A say so ) the recent letters are cleverly written and every one I asked was convinced that A*A had already won a citation against me in my absence and that the huissiers would come within 48 hours to seize my assets. Instead of going to the tribunal to enquire I went to the huissiers and they confirmed that for the moment at least it is nothing more than les menaces and they seriously doubt that A*A will in fact take it before the tribunal (I really hope that they do), they told me most French citizens will be obedient and pay up when threatened, the others are the ones that stick their head in the sand and do not turn up when convoked. which your experiece bears out. It is a bit strange for the plaintiff to not turn up though!    Report

20/06/2009, 19:00 dragonrouge Joined on 08/02/2008 Posts 640 Re: French Legal Process Paul as someone who has been in the law for some considerable time the problems in the system are in the main brought about by the Crown Prosecution Service and the Police. It may amaze you but the CPS normally charge high and then when we get in front of the judge attempt to do a deal especially when the evidence is rubbish. My advice always to clients is not to do a deal. If you are not guilty then stand up and fight but as many clients have told me I do not have to do the time. Finally our system is based upon the Jury system and please believe me some strange decisions have come out as in Ken Dodd and where it was argued M'Lord my client has never trusted banks. He was found not guilty and the following day went to the tax office to pay his debts.    Report

20/06/2009, 22:56 Gardian Joined on 15/02/2006 Gard Posts 2,042 Re: French Legal Process JR .......... Just from my mega-limited experience of Thursday, I'd venture the suggestion that you take the opportunity to sit in at one of the next Tribunal sessions where your case might be heard - if it comes to that. Others may feel differently, but I wouldn't bother with an avocat - costly and ****.  Some prior exposure though, might just help you to have a feel for the style of your local Tribunal and for you to have your position well-marshalled.  I don't suppose that any Court, at any level, in any country, is much different, i.e. it hasn't got time to mess around, so (as I'm sure that you intend) make sure that you're concise and can quickly demonstrate that you have an answer to the 'charge'.  On Thursday, two or three cases where it was going to take some debate and study of papers, were set aside for re-examination when the initial pile had been dealt with.  All the best with it. As for us, all this is just a sideshow. The bornage is largely irrelevent: what matters is whether Mr X comes back for a Permis de Construire at some later date and crucially, whether the Mairie approves it in the face of local opposition.       Report

21/06/2009, 10:27 Chancer Joined on 16/07/2006 Picardie, Sussex Posts 4,879 Re: French Legal Process Very good advice Guardian, I will follow it. So speaketh the man that did 0% research before moving to France    Report

21/06/2009, 10:51 Patf Joined on 23/08/2004 SW Gers Posts 3,034 Re: French Legal Process Can anyone answer a question on tribunal decisions/ sentencing? In a local case a light aeroplane owner is accused of causing involuntarily injuries to passengers who he took for a flight while drunk and in a storm, and crashlanded. True - I know one of the victims. He was tried in the Tribunal d'Auch. The procurer decided " un an de prison dont neuf mois avec sursis et mis en reprive. 500€ d'amende. Judgement mis en délibéré au 24 Septembre". What does the last sentence mean? Is it just that the penalty needs to be confirmed by a higher court?    Report

21/06/2009, 12:23 gosub Joined on 15/01/2008 North of 47 Posts 622 Re: French Legal Process I think that basically, it's a 9 month suspended jail sentence. Les    Report

21/06/2009, 16:59 Cjlaws Joined on 19/03/2006 76270 Posts 252 Re: French Legal Process " un an de prison dont neuf mois avec sursis et mis en reprive. 500€ d'amende. " means one year's imprisonment, of which 9 months are suspended. €500 fine. Sounds like that is the sentence requested by the procurer (public prosecutor). "Judgement mis en délibéré au 24 Septembre." Means judgement is adjourned until 24 September. CJL    Report

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