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19/04/2008, 20:29 PaulaW Joined on 15/01/2008 Posts 17 Employee vs Self-Employed Hi all, You lot have been fantastic in helping in other areas, so I thought I'd return for some more help.  It's a complex one I'm afraid (isn't it always?). Forgive the very specific nature of this enquiry but I am a lone parent and can't afford to spare much in the way of professional advice - hence my being here... in a "you never know who's looking and feeling generous" capacity. I am a UK national moving to France early June, just my son and I.  I had planned to continue working for my existing UK employers, from home, under the UK PAYE system (naive huh?).  Anyway, much research and many sleepless nights later my naivety is slowly vanishing. I already know that because I will be employed, and not in a seconded capacity, that I am not entitled to the E106 or the E101. That left me with two choices - to convince my employers of the benefits of retaining me as an employee and paying all the contributions, taxes and wading through whatever red tape went along with that - or them releasing my from my existing contractual obligations and me invoicing them for my work as a self-employed person. Since finding any benefits at all with which to convince my employers to maintain me as a salaried employee seem virtually nonexistent, it looks like the self-employed route is my only option.  Please feel free to disagree with that statement, bearing in mind that "a presence on the continent" probably won't cut me much slack. These are the negatives for my employers, as I see them - again, please feel free to correct me: 1.  They will have to pay around 45% of my gross income again, in French social security contributions 2.  I can contractually opt to be subject to UK employment law despite being a French resident, yet some French employment laws favouring the employee (maximum working week, leave, rest time etc.) can be legally used against them during a dispute. 3.  They will have to go through the registration process and obtain a siret in order to pay their contributions (whether they are obliged to go as far as setting up a French subsidiary - and paying the costs associated with that - I remain unsure of) 4.  Taxes - this is something no one has yet mentioned to me so again, I am unsure if my employers would be subject to any on my behalf.  Possibly not since a) as a lone parent working from home, this would give me certain tax breaks and b) I am not promoting, selling, importing or exporting and UK goods or services in or to France. The major benefit for me, by remaining an employee, is the obvious one of only having to pay around 22% in social security contributions. The way I see it, my employers would have to be mental to agree to all that.  Feel free to disagree at any point. So - self-employment. Having looked at all the many classifications of self-employment in France, and being totally mystified by most of them, I considered a portage salarial to start with.  I know I will 'lose' around 50% of my gross annual income if I take that route - but I'm a bit lost as to what else to do.  I certainly do not want to spend all my time off (what little I get) filling in paperwork.  Any advice on this too would be most welcome. I've bored myself typing all this out, so god knows what anyone else reading it is doing.  Snooze time?    Report

19/04/2008, 21:05 Panda Joined on 29/01/2008 Charente (16) and Vienne (86) Heading For Seez (73 Posts 371 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed Hi Paula What line of work are you in?  I'm working as a self emplyed person over here for a UK company, not much paperwork just the annual tax return but that's pretty straight forward involved and far simpler for my employer, you can also get other contracts of course which is a benefit. I can't really see a problem, just find an accountant get yourself registered get on with your life, where area are you going to live in and what age is your son, I'm here with my son too, we could meet up if you're nearby. EDIT:  Not that naive on the PAYE element, I did this for 18 months and no one seemed to care, then the UK gov paid all my tax back and said I had to register over here, so I did. Panda    Report

19/04/2008, 21:09 Will Joined on 22/09/2004 Sussex & 50 (Mortainais) Posts 4,931 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed Contrary to what you say, I see no reason why your employer could not apply for an E101 for you. That will give a year, in which you continue to pay tax and NI in Britain, with the possibility of one renewal, before the form expires. At the end of the E101 period you and your employer can decide whether it is all so wonderful that they continue to employ you in France and cover all the charges etc, that the whole thing is a disaster and you want no more to do with France, or whether you think you can both hack it with you being self employed, either under a direct contract or through portage. It's a route that admittedly crosses into some grey areas - and the E101 may not be granted - but is worth exploring because it gives you and your employer a chance to test the water without making an immediate commitment. Will intentionally blank signature http://www.vienormande.com    Report

19/04/2008, 21:28 PaulaW Joined on 15/01/2008 Posts 17 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed  Panda wrote: Hi Paula What line of work are you in?  Hi Panda.  It's IT/admin based - one firm are a firm of commercial engineers, for whom I man the helpdesk and maintain their Lotus Notes system.  The other role is systems admin (non-financial reporting systems) for corporate responsibility departments (I am employed by the consultant rather then the firms I work with).  Panda wrote: I'm working as a self employed person over here for a UK company, not much paperwork just the annual tax return but that's pretty straight forward involved and far simpler for my employer, you can also get other contracts of course which is a benefit. I hope you don't mind me asking... what classification of self-employed are you and how much of your gross income do you end up with in your pocket?  Panda wrote: I can't really see a problem, just find an accountant get yourself registered get on with your life, where area are you going to live in and what age is your son, I'm here with my son too, we could meet up if you're nearby. I will be living on the Normandy Coast - if you are near, that would be great.  My son is 10 - and absolutely bricking it :)  Panda wrote: EDIT:  Not that naive on the PAYE element, I did this for 18 months and no one seemed to care, then the UK gov paid all my tax back and said I had to register over here, so I did. Really?  How were you covered health wise?  Did you worry about your son needing emergency medical treatment?  That's my main concern.  Plus I am an asthmatic and I have a repeat prescription for ventolin - but it's probably less hassle to buy that in the pharmacy.    Report

19/04/2008, 21:35 PaulaW Joined on 15/01/2008 Posts 17 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed  Will wrote: Contrary to what you say, I see no reason why your employer could not apply for an E101 for you. That will give a year, in which you continue to pay tax and NI in Britain, with the possibility of one renewal, before the form expires. At the end of the E101 period you and your employer can decide whether it is all so wonderful that they continue to employ you in France and cover all the charges etc, that the whole thing is a disaster and you want no more to do with France, or whether you think you can both hack it with you being self employed, either under a direct contract or through portage. It's a route that admittedly crosses into some grey areas - and the E101 may not be granted - but is worth exploring because it gives you and your employer a chance to test the water without making an immediate commitment. Hi Will, thanks.  As I understand it, the form my employers would have to complete to apply for the E101 asks them to lie - in my case (CA3821/2 ?).  They have to state that my move is temporary and estimate the date of my return, as well as stating it is their wish that I go abroad.  Both my employers are sticklers for the legal side of things and that is a document that, in the unlikely event it was needed, could arguably be used as evidence in a tribunal.    Report

19/04/2008, 21:37 Panda Joined on 29/01/2008 Charente (16) and Vienne (86) Heading For Seez (73 Posts 371 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed Hello I'm in IT too and registed as a profession liberale as a general consultant, my accountant basically went for as many different aspects of this as possible to cover all eventualities.  When I was on PAYE I had an E106 so no problem there with health, as you are working now you could apply for one of these or do as Will says and go for an E101 if you can get one, either one will allow you to register whilst you sort out your business.  I earn about the same as I would in the UK and pay about 25% of my gross income in charges and tax, I have no acutal overheads to speak of but if you did then this would bring this figure down of course. Sadly I'm in the Charente, you should advertise for friends (how sad does that sound but you know what I mean) on the other more 'adverty' forums, AngloInfo etc.  there will be others in your area in the same boat.  Good luck with it! Panda    Report

19/04/2008, 21:50 Albert the InfoGipsy Joined on 01/07/2006 Kingdom of the Middle Saxons & Vannes (56) Posts 613 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed Paula, Will is as wise as ever, but the E101 may not be a goer so you need a plan B. Have you spoken to anybody at your employer about your dreams/plans? Something that many permanent employees are unaware of is how much it costs a company to employ them, over and above their salary. For example, they must pay 11%  employer's National Insurance contribution, so if you go freelance they save that straight away. Many firms allow 50% on top of salary for such costs so paying you 40% more could represent a saving. On the other hand they may not even consider the idea of using you as a freelance at any price, so you need to establish where you stand before putting in too much effort. You've presumably considered all the risks of freelancing, including being at the front of the queue if they need to lay people off. That said, I've been an IT freelance for 10 years, although with a succession of clients. Have a look at Jobserve.com just to see what else is out there. Albert the InfoGipsy "So welcome to the Citadel where the question is 'Am I?'"    Report

19/04/2008, 21:54 Panda Joined on 29/01/2008 Charente (16) and Vienne (86) Heading For Seez (73 Posts 371 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed  Albert the InfoGipsy wrote: Paula, Will is as wise as ever, but the E101 may not be a goer so you need a plan B. Have you spoken to anybody at your employer about your dreams/plans? Something that many permanent employees are unaware of is how much it costs a company to employ them, over and above their salary. For example, they must pay 11%  employer's National Insurance contribution, so if you go freelance they save that straight away. Many firms allow 50% on top of salary for such costs so paying you 40% more could represent a saving. I'm with Albert on this as I am very aware that I am cheap to my employer, they have a huge benefits package so they save massively having me as freelance as opposed to my previously great package.  I also do the same work in half the hours these days, not sure how that happened (could be the dreadful weather keeoing me at my keyboard for hours), something to be aware of.  I still get paid a lot more than any job I have ever seen worth applying for over here so everyone wins really! Panda    Report

19/04/2008, 22:06 PaulaW Joined on 15/01/2008 Posts 17 Re: Employee vs Self-Employed  Panda wrote: Hello I'm in IT too and registed as a profession liberale as a general consultant, my accountant basically went for as many different aspects of this as possible to cover all eventualities.  When I was on PAYE I had an E106 so no problem there with health, as you are working now you could apply for one of these or do as Will says and go for an E101 if you can get one, either one will allow you to register whilst you sort out your business.  I earn about the same as I would in the UK and pay about 25% of my gross income in charges and tax, I have no acutal overheads to speak of but if you did then this would bring this figure down of course. Sadly I'm in the Charente, you should advertise for friends (how sad does that sound but you know what I mean) on the other more 'adverty' forums, AngloInfo etc.  there will be others in your area in the same boat.  Good luck with it! Panda Thanks again, Panda.  Your advice is greatly appreciated particularly since your situation seems very close to my own.  A shame you're so far away.  As for advertising for friends, if the reaction of my UK mates is anything to go by, I'll be seeing more of them in France than I ever do here!  My parents have lived in France for some years now too, also in Normandy, and are one of my reasons for making the move - they're not getting any younger. I would be interested to know, as a percentage of your income (if that's less intrusive), how much your accountant costs - I am struggling to understand why I would only see 50% of my gross salary (on a 7-10% fee) if I use a portage salarial, yet you use only an accountant and save half that.     Report

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