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French History
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 10/02/2008, 22:06
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Cathy
 
Joined on 07/03/2006
Mostly near Bordeaux; Sometimes near Bristol
Posts 1,688
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Different versions of the same event in history can be produced by different people. However, according to many historians, the German soldiers were looking for a German officer, Sturmbannfuhrer Kampfe, who was being held hostage by the Resistance in Oradour-sur-Vayres (not Oradour-sur-Glane) at some point on 9th June 1944. After the D-Day invasion, on 6th June 1944, there had been an order for the Resistance to step up their activities to slow the movement of German troops to Normandy.
Because, on 10th June, the Germans surrounded the wrong village, and naturally they could not find their fellow officer because he was elsewhere, the officer commanding one of the battalions of the 4th Waffen SS, Sturmbannfuhrer Adolf Diekmann, oversaw the massacre. Apparently, he had no authority to do this. He had been detailed by his regimental commander, Standartenfuhrer Stadler, to order the Mayor of Oradour to name 30 people as hostages until Sturmbannfuhrer Kampfe was released (pretty cruel in itself). Had Diekmann not been killed himself, along with many of the battalion, days later in the Battle of Normandy, he would have been held to account.
This explanation is not an apology for what happened. Far from it. It demonstrates how evil and pointless war is, when desperate retreating troops can commit such an atrocity. They killed anyone who accidentally found themselves in the village including, it is understood, some passing cyclists. How can they have done it? What was in their minds? Afterwards, would the soldiers have felt any remorse?
It was a horrifying and unthinkable episode and we can only hope that the memorial will revolt enough of us all to prevent it from ever happening again. Thank the French for enabling this memorial to stand.
Cathy
-----
Your children won't remember you ironing their pyjamas but they will remember you reading them a bedside story.
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11/02/2008, 17:35
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shawny
Joined on 26/11/2007
Posts 14
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You state, according to many historians.....I have read a few books over many years and I don't want to harp on about this but sorry, I really think that the best that anyone can say about why this atrocity happened is :
On that day
they killed a total of 642 men, women and children without giving
any reasons for their actions and to this day there is no
universally accepted explanation for the massacre.
Author Michael Williams
http://www.oradour.info/index.htm
As for this sort of thing never happening again....sadly, it has happened since and many times over.
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18/02/2008, 14:47
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shawny
Joined on 26/11/2007
Posts 14
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I don't want to get in to a dispute here but have you ever been in the position of shooting innocents ? Of course the answer I would think is "No" As for no gun being put to their heads, I think we know that is most probably the case, even if not literally.
I believe it is hard to know what anyone would do, when the penalty of refusal to act as ordered, is a shot in the head yourself, or death by some means. Now add on that you have a dearly beloved parents, maybe even wonderful Grandparents and a few children of your own at home in Germany, waiting for your return ?
As none of us have probably ever been in this same position, I guess we can all say we would rather be shot than do this and when the reality of the moment comes along, what would we really do ? Truth is, we can stamp our feet and deny we would never, ever, do such a barabarous act and I would hazard a guess that some time back, many of those same men who committed those evil deeds, might well have said the same thing.
Wars are detestable times and terrible atrocities happen, whether we would be brave enough to be killed for our principles, knowing our children, our Wives and our Grandparents will not be seen again, well that is probably the hardest question to answer, that one may ever be asked.
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18/02/2008, 16:23
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Sunday Driver
Joined on 07/10/2005
Deux Sevres (79)
Posts 2,767
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Nothing changes......
Charlie Company landed following a short artillery and helicopter gunship preparation. The soldiers found no enemy fighters in the village on the morning of March 16. Many suspected there were NLF troops in the village, hiding underground in the homes of their elderly parents or their wives. The U.S. soldiers, one platoon of which was led by Second Lieutenant William Calley, went in shooting at "suspected enemy position". After the first civilians were killed and wounded by the indiscriminate fire, the soldiers soon began attacking anything that moved, humans and animals alike, with firearms, grenades and bayonets. The scale of the massacre only spiraled as it progressed, the brutality increasing with each killing.
BBC News described the scene:
"Soldiers went berserk, gunning down unarmed men, women, children and babies. Families which huddled together for safety in huts or bunkers were shown no mercy. Those who emerged with hands held high were murdered. ... Elsewhere in the village, other atrocities were in progress. Women were gang raped; Vietnamese who had bowed to greet the Americans were beaten with fists and tortured, clubbed with rifle butts and stabbed with bayonets. Some victims were mutilated with the signature "C Company" carved into the chest. By late morning word had got back to higher authorities and a cease-fire was ordered. My Lai was in a state of carnage. Bodies were strewn through the village."
Dozens of people were herded into an irrigation ditch and other locations and killed with automatic weapons. A large group of about 70 to 80 villagers, rounded up by the 1st Platoon in the center of the village, were killed personally by Calley and by soldiers he had ordered to fire. Calley also shot two other large groups of civilians with a weapon taken from a soldier who had refused to do any further killing.
Members of the 2nd Platoon killed at least 60-70 Vietnamese men, women, and children, as they swept through the northern half of My Lai 4 and through Binh Tay, a small subhamlet about 400 meters north of My Lai 4.
After the initial "sweeps" by the 1st and the 2nd Platoons, the 3rd Platoon was dispatched to deal with any "remaining resistance". They immediately began killing every still-living human and animal they could find, including shooting the Vietnamese who emerged from their hiding places, and finishing off the wounded found moaning in the heaps of bodies. The 3rd Platoon also rounded up and killed a group of 7 to 12 women and children.
Since Charlie Company had encountered no enemy opposition, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiement, was moved into its landing zone between and attacked the subhamlet of My Khe 4, killing as many as 90 people. U.S. forces lost one man killed and seven wounded from mines and booby traps. During the next two days, both battalions were involved in additional burning and destruction of dwellings, and in the mistreatment of Vietnamese detainees.
Most of the soldiers had not participated in the crimes, but neither did they protest or complain to their superiors.
None of these All American Boys are likely to have been under threat of immediate shooting by their superiors, nor did they have family at home who would be thrown into concentration camps if they refused to obey. It's just the way of Man......
Waddya mean it's only Saturday......
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18/02/2008, 17:48
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raindog
Joined on 26/09/2007
HERAULT
Posts 766
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That makes sobering reading SD.......
sociability is just a big smile and a big smile is nothing but teeth
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22/02/2008, 8:26
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shawny
Joined on 26/11/2007
Posts 14
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| Most of the soldiers had not participated in the crimes, but neither did they protest or complain to their superiors.
None of these All American Boys are likely to have been under threat
of immediate shooting by their superiors, nor did they have family at
home who would be thrown into concentration camps if they refused to
obey. It's just the way of Man...... |
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I think it may be futile to judge both events against each other, suffice to say the threats to the German soldiers in World War 2 to obey such vile things, were probably far different to the Americans in Vietnam. In your post you mention most American soldiers not participating. In the case of Oradour, I do not think that to be the case, if so, perhaps we would have records to tell us that most German soldiers never took part in the atrocity. I do believe that the two cases and indeed the wars themselves, were quite different.
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France Forum » French Culture » French History » Re: Oradour sur Glane
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