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French History
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 18/02/2008, 17:48
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raindog
 
Joined on 26/09/2007
HERAULT
Posts 761
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That makes sobering reading SD.......
sociability is just a big smile and a big smile is nothing but teeth
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22/02/2008, 8:26
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shawny
Joined on 26/11/2007
Posts 14
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| Most of the soldiers had not participated in the crimes, but neither did they protest or complain to their superiors.
None of these All American Boys are likely to have been under threat
of immediate shooting by their superiors, nor did they have family at
home who would be thrown into concentration camps if they refused to
obey. It's just the way of Man...... |
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I think it may be futile to judge both events against each other, suffice to say the threats to the German soldiers in World War 2 to obey such vile things, were probably far different to the Americans in Vietnam. In your post you mention most American soldiers not participating. In the case of Oradour, I do not think that to be the case, if so, perhaps we would have records to tell us that most German soldiers never took part in the atrocity. I do believe that the two cases and indeed the wars themselves, were quite different.
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22/02/2008, 8:46
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Cathy
Joined on 07/03/2006
Mostly near Bordeaux; Sometimes near Bristol
Posts 1,684
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They both show that war is futile. And to think that Britain has been at war every single year that Tony Blair was Prime Minister. Shocking.
Cathy
-----
Your children won't remember you ironing their pyjamas but they will remember you reading them a bedside story.
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22/02/2008, 10:13
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Ron Avery
Joined on 29/11/2004
Aveyron 12
Posts 3,095
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Different versions of the same event in history can be produced by different people.
One French historian has been jailed for publishing his account which questions the "official version" of the massacre,
His account and that of others, questions how the only survivor a young girl, who told of the massacre, could have escaped from the church by climbing up a wall to get through a window 3 metres above the ground with the leg injuries that she had.
His account like the German account, suggested that the massacre in the church by the Germans story was politically expedient at the time and that the people in the church were actually killed by exploding munitions resulting from munitions stored in the church by the Communist resistance being set off by exploding munitions stored in nearby houses which had been set alight, flying into the church. The resulting explosions killed the people that had been put into the church whilst the village was searched for the hostage.
The "German version of events is here http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p--5_letters.html
It makes interesting reading and in many people's opinion is a more likely account as to what occurred as the French version of events. But neverrtheless a lot of people died that day in that town, how, we may never know, but its worth reading the other side of the story. |
Ron in the Avey-ron
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22/02/2008, 11:34
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Scooby
Joined on 25/09/2007
Peak District
Posts 244
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An interesting version until I read the following:
The SS men may have been many things, but they were not liars or
criminals. and they had a "code of honor" to live up to. In contrast
the partisans in France and elsewhere, were often recruited from the
criminal underworld or the indigenous communist movement and carried
out a campaign of unscrupulous terrorism that defies any moral
standards whatsoever!
Given what we know (definitively) about the actions of the SS elsewhere, and their skills at propoganda (see Terezin) - and the anti-semitic / holocaust denial preface to the above article, I somehow doubt the validity of this account.
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22/02/2008, 21:38
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Sunday Driver
Joined on 07/10/2005
Deux Sevres (79)
Posts 2,747
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It's the old 'one man's patriot is another man's terrorist' cliche.
The job of the French partisans was to kill Germans. I'd expect the partisan leadership to get the job done by recruiting merciless killers from the criminal fraternity.
The job of the Germans was to limit the effectiveness of the French partisans - either by killing them or killing the civilian population 'pour encourager les autres'....
Waddya mean it's only Saturday......
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23/06/2008, 20:38
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la-vie-en-rose
Joined on 18/08/2007
Posts 18
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I've just read through this thread.
In our area of France (the Gers and the Haute Garonne), French neighbours know about Oradour, but say little beyond the fact that the same sort of story occurred all over France - it is memorialised there, but similar events are remembered elsewhere too. A friend researching stories about the war hoped to talk to a number of people about their memories and was surprised to find no-one willing to discuss it. Families and communities were divided and it seeems that the best that many can do is "not mention the War". I didn't like the story in the book, but I found the background in "Charlotte Gray" helped me to understand a little more of how it must be for an occupied and divided nation. I do not think it would be any different in any other country.
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23/06/2008, 22:05
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Cathy
Joined on 07/03/2006
Mostly near Bordeaux; Sometimes near Bristol
Posts 1,684
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23/06/2008, 22:09
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Cathy
Joined on 07/03/2006
Mostly near Bordeaux; Sometimes near Bristol
Posts 1,684
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24/06/2008, 9:56
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trees 2
Joined on 28/04/2008
Posts 64
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![Sad [:(]](/cs/images/emotions/sad.gif)
Re: Oradour sur Glane
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Just to take this back to it's original direction, my wife and I visited Oradour for the first time in the early 70's.
There was no museum, and entry was via a gate at the end of the road where entry is now gained from the museum.
A leaflet we had at the time, in French, from a little hut at the etrance, explained about the massacre, and further stated that many artifacts were PLACED so as to be seen, in their damaged condition, hung up, stood on alcoves etc. Buildings had been tidied to reveal interiors and to make them safe.
There was little or no security, at that time, and this may explain the French decision to build secure entrances, and to limit entry to daylight hours. They also fenced off many of the houses and businesses, and the main reason for so doing, according to locals, is that souvenir hunters had begun systematically stripping the place.
I think you will find that this is why smaller items are dispalyed in the museum and underground bunker, while bicycles frames, bedsteads and sewing machines were left where they were.
I asked the old gent we bought our house from if he remembered Oradour. He said not, as he had been taken to Germany by that time as forced labour.
I asked him if he hated the Germans for what they did to him and others like him, and for what they did at Oradour, and other places.
His answer was, "How can you hate after so long? They were fighting for what they believed in, the same as we were, and our own countrymen carried out a few despicable acts too."
He went on to say that when he spoke to German people around Berlin during his forced labour time, they all bemoaned the fact that their sons, brothers fathers etc were away fighting and they had no news of them. When asked how they thought HIS family felt, they had not really considered it...............but agreed that it would be the same for them.
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France Forum » French Culture » French History » Oradour sur Glane
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