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Making the Move From Outside the EU
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 04/03/2008, 9:34
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Quillan
 
Joined on 23/08/2004
Forum Moderator
Posts 3,718
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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 tegwini wrote: | |
Thank you W-B's brother & CJR
So much guilt in the western psyche- it surprises me constantly - often people who have never travelled & have been brainwashed at school & etc (that's certainly the case in school today - as a historian I have had to cope with that!)
We seem to be apologising for everything - slavery for example, and yet the ancestors of the slaves must thank their lucky stars they are not back in Africa , & be aware of the numbers of their former tribes & families who would give anything to emigrate to the US - or anywhere!
Talking of propaganda Quillan- we get loads of it here - recently the BBC claimed (via a Mugabe crony) that Ian Smith won't be missed - ironic or what? - most of Zim is counting the days until Comrade Mugabe dies - not all will live to see it however.
Lots of ignorance too, the SA press & judiciary was always independent & there was lots of opposition to the SA (apartheid) government so it's quite wrong to say people don't know or didn't know what was going on - this has not been possible for many decades and it beggars belief that outsiders can pontificate on something they have never experienced.
This is it for me also - the brick wall here is a bit hard!
tegwini
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Interesting enough during my holiday in Spain the main item on the news (on Spanish TV) was about the film made of South African university students abusing the black workers. I understand it was also shown on UK TV and in other countries around the world. I don't see many people who took part in this thread standing up and saying what a terrible and despicable thing they did.
Tegwini - I think most of us know that the BBC in particular pumps out propagandist broadcasts and is just a mouthpiece of the British government. I find it better to read the news via the internet and preferably from other countries. You can then put it together and get a better view of what is really happening. A good example of UK government control of the media is that when the second invasion of Iraq took place over 70% of military personnel who fought in the Falklands and in the Iraq/Kuwait war sent their campaign medals back in protest of an illegal war, something never reported in the UK press, but then that's yet another story.
The thing about making comments about where people have or have not been on their travels is a bit dangerous if you don't know them and make assumptions. I have been to SA back in the 70's and it was not for a holiday. I would not have lived there then if I had a choice, it was horrible. It did however appeal to the white neo Nazi's who emigrated there at the time from the UK, they could be a big fish in a small pond. You only had to listen to them in bars and clubs, the "I've got considerably more black servants than you" syndrome, pathetic really. and it got worse at times. If they behaved the same way in public back in the UK they would have got a right smacking off somebody. Mind you the tables have turned now and they can't get out the place quick enough (no disrespect to the OP as I don't know them or their circumstances).
As to Zim, well if Blair ever wanted to invade anywhere to sort things out for the good of the people then that should have been the place. There is nothing racist about the situation there (coz most of the whites are either dead or have left) its just down to one mans ego and lust for money. A very sad situation I am afraid.
http://www.chambresdhote.com
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05/03/2008, 20:37
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CJR
Joined on 18/02/2008
Posts 5
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![Sad [:(]](/cs/images/emotions/sad.gif)
Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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If you want to pursue a moral crusade why not pick on the inequalities which are taking place in China and the treatment of women in Islamic coutries. If Nelson Mandela had lived in China he would not have just been imprisoned he would have been executed. It seems that all the great and the good and the politically correct people in our society never attack the inequalities in large and powerful societies it seems that might is right. Globally you should realise that the equity and rules of fair play that prevail in western society and culture are under attack from the vary values they are trying to protect. Western Society is in similar situation which lead to the fall of great civilisations like that of the ancient Romans and Greeks.
Firstly what the white university students did in South Africa was deplorable, however when taken in context this racial incident is once of a series happening in the country. It is easy to take the moral high ground but consider what is really happening in South Africa and other African countries. I went to a University in South Africa which produced at least five nobel prize winners in the sciences(It is unlikely that any further Nobel Laureate's will come from South Africa for scientific achievment) and before Jan Smuts was voted out of power in South Africa because of the liberal race policies of his party (Incidently I do not think you know it ,but he wrote the preamble to the United Nations Charter and played a leading role in forming the League of Nations ,a truely great achievment by a South African who was born in the country with the same rights as the current rulers of S A )( not an Expat like yourself ). The jury is still out on muti-cultural societies , my view is they do not work nor will they work because of human nature like the failed communist and socialist model. Homogenious societies work best and achieve most. Japan is smaller than the UK with a greater population and largely a homegenioussociety and look at what has been achieved post 1945. They had the effects of two nuclear weapons being used on them yet there current generation have no vendetta on the Americans. I can not see this happening in Africa with all its problems. These were not created by the colonials but by the current generation of African rulers and their propensity for greed , corruption and incompetence and only looking after number one and not the people they govern and lead.
Jacob Zuma the leader of the ANC excluded white journalists from a briefing to the forum of black journalists recently , also white South African school children are having to swear an oath where they are made to feel morally inferior to their fellow black students.
The South African Government practices affirmative action , not employment of the best and most suitable for the position. I can not see any reasonable person wanting to live in a society like this whether they are black white pink or yellow.This means as a consequence you have a large number of either incompetent or government stooges in positions of great responsibility. This is one of the main reasons the fabric of the economic infrastructure is crumbling as is the case throughout Africa. Also, it is only in a corrupt government like the current one running the affairs of state in South Africa where you have a rapist and one who is shortly to be charged with corruption for the theft of nearly £200 million in an arms deal. There is documentary proof of Zuma's transgressions however, my guess is that Zuma will never be convicted because there is no longer a fair legal system in operation in South Africa which used uphold the very basic legal rights of individuals. If this were not the case, when things changed and Nelson Mandela became South Africa's first black president it would not have been very peaceful at all in South Africa the whites accepted that they when in control they behaved badly however that was in 1994 nearly 14 years ago and South Africa is no better place than it was in 1994 in fact it is far worse and not really democratic.This is largely unreported in the European and UK media.
CJR
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05/03/2008, 21:33
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Tressy
Joined on 26/02/2008
Charente-Maritime
Posts 205
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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| CJR wrote: | | ...the whites accepted that they when in control they behaved badly however that was in 1994 nearly 14 years ago and South Africa is no better place than it was in 1994 in fact it is far worse and not really democratic. |
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(My bold)
You're surprised that it's taking longer than 14 years to counter 400 years of 'bad' behaviour', and its legacies?
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06/03/2008, 10:11
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Quillan
Joined on 23/08/2004
Forum Moderator
Posts 3,718
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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| CJR wrote: | |
If you want to pursue a moral crusade why not pick on the inequalities which are taking place in China and the treatment of women in Islamic coutries.
AND
South Africa is no better place than it was in 1994 in fact it is far worse and not really democratic. This is largely unreported in the European and UK media.
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But we are not talking about China or Islam which I agree have their own problems, we are talking about SA.
How could SA have been democtratic during apartheid when only the whites had the vote? Bit like the tail wagging the dog back i.e. the minority ruling the majority.
The current problems go back to when SA was colonized and what the colonists did and how they ruled the indigenous population. The bulk of which was done by the British.
People don't forget old scores, take Yugoslavia for example where groups are divided by force thus stopping them from resolving their problems by whatever means. The colonists in SA divided the tribes to force 'peace' upon them but was that the real reason, or was it divide and conquer, I thnk it was the latter. Once those that ruled handed the country back the indigenous population resorted back to how it was and possibly with greater vengeance than before because of pent up frustration. I think, however bad things went, the tribes should have been left to sort their own problems out which is what is happening now.
Because you are white and are 2nd or 3rd generation living in a country that was colonised by your own ancestors does not make you an indigenous member of that countries population just merely the spouse of the conqueror. There is and never was an indigenous white population of SA. Personally I think white South Africans should be made to re-apply for their nationality like any other immigrant.
http://www.chambresdhote.com
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06/03/2008, 22:18
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CJR
Joined on 18/02/2008
Posts 5
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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History was obviously not a good subject for you at school. You are totally incorrect.
400 years ago would put you in the 17 th century where there was no racial legislation. We are talking about the 20 th century at a time when racial prejudice and racially prejudiced laws were not unusal. Particularly in the USA and Australia. In South Africa and the Cape Province during the 17 th century interacial marriage was not unusual and was socially acceptable. In the 20 th century expats particularly from the UK, forced the Government of South Africa to introduce legislation in the Mining Industry to protect jobs. So we are not talking about 400 years ago in fact until up until 1956 some blacks and coloured people had the vote.
In the 20 th century racisim and racial issues was not confined to South Africa but commonplace in Europe.
CJR
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07/03/2008, 19:00
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Jura
Joined on 28/11/2005
Posts 796
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Yes Quillan the 'whites' gave Africa back to the 'indigenous' population...just as they should have...and look what they are doing now to their own people.
The fact is that Africa was always a tribal civilisation; pre-white settlement it was always subject to tribal rule/law. It always has been. It was fine for them to spear their people 200 years ago...but to do such things to women and childen today, and with machetes...?
But that's okay...because they rule themselves now, right?
If parts of the world had been left to develop under 'indigenous populations' we would have a very primitive planet today indeed. Are you English? bear in mind that the true indigenous English are now living in Wales and Scotland.
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08/03/2008, 7:29
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raindog
Joined on 26/09/2007
HERAULT
Posts 789
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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I thought that was the Britons? ![Confused [8-)]](/cs/images/emotions/confused.gif)
sociability is just a big smile and a big smile is nothing but teeth
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08/03/2008, 10:28
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Quillan
Joined on 23/08/2004
Forum Moderator
Posts 3,718
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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| Jura wrote: | |
Yes Quillan the 'whites' gave Africa back to the 'indigenous' population...just as they should have people.
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Exactly and quite right too.
| Jura wrote: | |
The fact is that Africa was always a tribal civilisation; pre-white settlement it was always subject to tribal rule/law. It always has been. It was fine for them to spear their people 200 years ago...but to do such things to women and children today, and with machetes...?
But that's okay...because they rule themselves now, right?
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Not it's not right by our standards but then that's our standards not theirs. Would you think it right that the current president went to the UK (or France as you are living here I believe) and told them how to run their country or if you went exactly the same way as the British in SA to enforce his way of doing things. We might consider it uncivilised and not right by our standards but it's nothing to do with us what they do in their own country. You will be saying it was right to invade Iraq next and perhaps we should consider China and sort them out, after all they murder female babies there most of the time. But again that's another issue and we wouldn't because they can fight back on an equal standing and we might loose.
| Jura wrote: | |
If parts of the world had been left to develop under 'indigenous populations' we would have a very primitive planet today indeed. Are you English? bear in mind that the true indigenous English are now living in Wales and Scotland.
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Does not work I am afraid. Yes the English are a bastardised race and it's happened over a 1000 years or more starting with the Romans but then they have integrated, married (or a bit of the old rape and pillage with the Vikings etc) so they are now a right old mix. The issue, unfortunately, is that it's easier to spot when the parents are of two different colours and the whites in SA made little or no attempt to integrate with the native population. Lets get some current statistics from the SA government website shall we.... SA Population is 47.9M. Africans are in the majority at just over 38-million, making up 79.6% of the total population. The white population is estimated at 4.3-million (9.1%), the coloured population (that's mixed race as you know) at 4.2-million (8.9%) and the Indian/Asian population at just short of 1.2-million (2.5%). These figures were produced in mid 2007 (source - http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/demographics/population.htm ) if you want to know about the UK then look at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/commentaries/ethnicity.asp These statistics don't take in to account the mixing of European 'invaders' over hundreds of years.
Also the word 'race' in the context of what we are talking about and keeping in simple (I can give you the long description if you wish) is European, African and Asian. So the French, Germans, Spanish, Russians (with the exception of Mongolians who are defined as Asian) etc are part of the same race. Europeans and African are of different races. For a better definition try "Definition of Race" in Google.
(My sources are public domain and not copyrighted.)
http://www.chambresdhote.com
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France Forum » Moving » Making the Move... » Re: Botswana - good government ?????
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