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Making the Move From Outside the EU
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 19/02/2008, 9:18
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woolybanana'sbrother
Joined on 18/01/2008
Posts 1,321
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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We certainly did not teach Shaka how to butcher whole tribes and leave whole regions devastated.
Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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19/02/2008, 13:11
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Quillan
 
Joined on 23/08/2004
Forum Moderator
Posts 3,931
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Yes but then amongst the Zulus he was the chap who brought all the fragmented Zulu tribes together. Also, if I remember correctly, he didn't just do this on a whim, I think there is a large part of Zulu history involved. That said you are quite right but then this happened back in the early 1800's and perhaps he had in fact witnessed what the whites had done not just to other blacks but to themselves (Boars V Brits) and thought whats good for them is good for me? He was also a very good military strategist. You can't put all the blame at the white immigrants door but in the case of Africa you can put a very big portion there. We know pay for the 'sins' of our great, great grandfathers as we do with other continents.
http://www.chambresdhote.com
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19/02/2008, 13:46
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woolybanana'sbrother
Joined on 18/01/2008
Posts 1,321
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Zulu expansionism met the other tribes going west, squeezing them out, stealing their cattle and often forcing them to flee to the mountains or either be enslaved or slaughtered. The whites were also encountered sporadically at this time, mainly Boers looking for land. They clashed with the Xhosas but a stalemate subsisted. Whole swathes of country were left empty and unused by the Zulu attacks. Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland became refugee countries too.
The Zulu nation also raided up into Nyasaland and Rhodesia, causing a knockon effect right up into Kenya.
Shake created the perfect fighting machine for his purposes, but his bloodletting was terrifying.
The white man infiltrated the gaps left by the Zulu raiding and eventually of course came up against the Zulu nation itself.
By the way Quillan, most expatriates from SA are black South Africans these days. And they do know what is going on.
Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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19/02/2008, 14:53
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tegwini
Joined on 19/09/2007
Wiltshire & Vienne
Posts 282
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Quillan,
I can see you have researched this a bit, but some errors...
- Black tribes were at war with each other well before thet met any whites- eg in Chaka's time
- Natal, where the Zulus lived was not colonised by the British until after the 1820s & then with only a smal no. of traders - Afrikaners from the Cape had trekked into Natal but in very small numbers
- Parts of South Africa were very sparsely populated - Natal because of the numerous wars, & large Zulu tribes migrated northwards & settled in Matabeleland (now Zimbabwe), in 1652 the Cape had only Hottentot & the San people, the Black tribes did not move westwards from the Fish River until later (late 18th century) and only then did the 2 races clash - initially over cattle rustling by the Xhosa tribes. W-B'brother is quite correct here.
- Even today in Zimbabwe the Shona & the Matebele kill each other- Mugabe is Shona, and most of the hunger is amongst the Matebele- and this animosity pre-dates the white man's arrival by at least 100 years.
-tribal migrations are nothing new- not just in Africa either- our ancestors moved around Europe killing etc - Rome was in reality destroyed by migrating tribes - Huns, Alans, Visigoths ...and of course invasions into England & Ireland by the Vikings & Anglo-Saxons. Brits in France nowadays- what should we call this? Perhaps some French resent this ? Why feel any guilt here ??? We should not have to feel guilt for colonisation either- Africa is better because Whites migrated there- if they had not perhaps constant blood baths, disease & starvation even worse - who knows? Certainly the population has increased massively - the Aborigines have declined in number, but were often hunted for sport by British ex-pats. This never happened in SA. The San/Bushman had a raw deal, but the African tribes even with slavery & warfare have increased their numbers at least 15 fold since about 1850- a rare increase!
- White SAficans have a right to be there- even the ANC accepts that, & most people accept that the Cape was near empty when the Dutch East India Company established a base there in 1652. The British did similar elsewhere & took over the Cape in 1805 & not for altruistic reasons either. SA is the powerhouse of Africa- why? why is it different? It is the only country with a sizeable population with skills, education & a work ethic.
tegwini
ps boar = hairy wild pig with tusks living in forests // boer= Afrikaner- person of Dutch/French/German origins, Dutch word for farmer.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/22880-south-africa (a bit more information here).
I think, therefore perhaps I am...
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19/02/2008, 18:14
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Quillan
Joined on 23/08/2004
Forum Moderator
Posts 3,931
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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The fact that the tribes fought is nothing to do with the white man not only in as much as they didn't start it but I guess in modernist terms it's internal politics and nothing to do with us. What the white man did was to play on these wars by helping some tribes and not others. This was not done with any sense of morality but because it served a purpose which was mainly to get their hands on the mineral and land wealth that was in abundance where these people lived.
With regards to Shaka, how you wish to view him depends on what, or more to the point who, you read. Most of the myth surrounding him about his 'barbarian' acts was written by a chap called Nathanian Isaacs and then further enhanced by Henry Francis Fynn and edited by James Stuart in 1950. Both Isaacs and Fynn, we now know, were charlatans, gun runners, slavers and all round nasty people. Several people have written about him in more recent times perhaps the more famous is E. A. Ritter in his novel Skaka Zulu which many take as a biography yet the writer always claimed it was not and merely a work of fiction and only very loosely based on fact. There are loads more people who have written about him and the list can go on for ever. In modern times the best book is without doubt The washing of Spears by Donald Morris which is based on 10 years of research. This book, whilst accepting the war like stature of Shaka, also explains both his military and social innovations and is considered to be THE definitive reference on the man.
As for the information on the East India Company and the dates given, I stand by it/them although it is somewhat condensed because to be honest if you went through it all we would be able to write a book at the end and indeed many books have been written. It just depends on your own personal perspective on whats written and whilst some differs to mine it is mine I choose to believe to be true.
http://www.chambresdhote.com
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19/02/2008, 18:24
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woolybanana'sbrother
Joined on 18/01/2008
Posts 1,321
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Quillan, I would love to be able to debate the details as I have all the books but they have just been packed for the move and wont be to hand for a couple of months. I would love to return to this later though if you like, having spent my early years in Natal, it is part of my life.
From memory, the Washing of the Spears is not very good history though but I need to look at it again.
Check out what is online though, quite interesting
Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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19/02/2008, 20:36
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CJR
Joined on 18/02/2008
Posts 5
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Re: Moving to France from South Africa
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Quinllin ignores the current situation in Africa which is where this discussion started.
He does not acknowledge that strategic assets like Kariba , Cabora Bassa , rail networks , roads & houses are not being built or repaired in Africa. Affirmative action in the labour market has resulted in skilled professionals leaving African countries in vast numbers. There are over 2 million South Africans including doctors, dentists, vets , accountants, engineers and other professionals which have left because they felt there was no security for thir families and no future.
He also ignores that in the book "The Washing of the Spears " Shaka acknowledged the superiority of the way things were done in Western Europe. I lived in Zululand and represented Zululand at golf where I qualified as a chartered accountant. During my time in Zululand I learnt the Zulu language and attended a number of functions where I came into contact with Chief Buthulezi, so I am speaking from a position of strength about the current problems in Africa. Chief Buthulezi is a moderate and has also acknowledged the causes of the problems in Africa. The African states which have became independent were left with fairly reasonable infrastructures and it is only because of corrupt and incompetent leadership that Africa has the problems it has. It has been reliably estimated that costs of corruption in Africa amounts to £200 billion and still growing. You can build a lot of schools, hospitals ,roads and economic infrastructure for this amount of cash.
Thabu Mbeki has supported his relative Robert Mugabe with free electricity, free maize and free fuel at the expense of the South African taxpayer. Any western leader would find himself in jail if he did the same.as Mbeki.You can not blame the 'Colonials' (or the whites) for this incompetence and corruption. African leaders' policies have resulted in increasingly huge gaps between the poor and the well off. The leaders in South Africa for example, often do not realise that stability attracts skills which the country desperately needs. That is why people want to leave these countries and come to Europe. The reason why there is so much crime is the poverty gap , in South Africa both crime and poverty are now worse than during the days of apartheid. This is almost unbelievable.
Look at Zimbabwe, Zambia, Congo, Angola, Kenya , Namibia & many others - all in a mess.
CJR
CJR
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France Forum » Moving » Making the Move... » Re: Botswana - good government ?????
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