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01/04/2008, 18:41 darnsarf Joined on 19/01/2006 31 (just) Posts 107 Re: Selling our house in France Sheesh, you've got a bee in your bonnet about this haven't you? I'm not sure where "you then throw in you used UK lawyers" came from. Perhaps I can quote my first two sentances on my first reply. "We used the two-notaire' approach when we bought a couple of years ago. We also used a UK (french dept) law firm, partly as advisors on inheritance issues etc, partly as translators (expensive for this!) and partly for 'general wellbeing' " So there is no 'throwing in of anything'. Yes, I used our own local Notaire and the seller used his own (who had handled the sale before). As I mentioned, despite all squabbles, I still preferred this approach overall. 'My Notaire' spotted some major omissions in the vendor's rather eccentric counterpart's drafts. My UK lawyers found more and insisted on certain conditions being inserted in the compromis. Since you point out that a Notaire is not responsible for representing either vendor or purchaser, I find it weird that you seem to be advocating that people enter into an expensive purchase in a country with very different property laws, planning, inheritance, language etc without representation. Using an Agent as translator doesn't seem at all wise to me and I didn't find much in the way of 'advice' coming from the Notaires, just confirmation that the paperwork was in place. They may be 'lawyers' (using the term loosely) but their role (in my view) is to ensure that what's being sold is able to be sold and that the tax is collected on behalf of the French Gov.  I suppose you consider it appropriate to sit down with the vendor and buy a house costing hundreds of thousands of pounds over a glass of wine and handshake? Romantic and naive. There was no confrontation with the vendor during the process (apart from the Notaires blaming each other for the delays). We're still in contact and at no time did he show signs that he was under pressure. The night before the Acte, we enjoyed dinner and stayed over at the house before driving down to the Notaire. Using a UK law firm isn't about having your hired gunslingers ride into town with you (well, it is, a bit). It's about ensuring that there is no doubt that their advice should be to my advantage (and there's a clear way to progress if they fail in this regard). As a previous poster notes. It's belt and braces, more expensive certainly, but considering the potential cost of a purchase going horribly wrong, very cheap indeed. I say this as a non-lawyer, who constantly bleats about their fees! No sarcastic, overused icons from me.        Report

01/04/2008, 18:52 Jacqui Too Joined on 23/08/2004 Shropshire / Dordogne 24 Posts 670 Re: Selling our house in France Actually I agree in full with what Darnsaft has said but I think everyone must chose what it right for them, they are the ones having to live with it after! Jackie At least with a spell-checker I can appear somewhat educated!    Report

01/04/2008, 19:00 woolybanana'sbrother Joined on 18/01/2008 Posts 1,321 Re: Selling our house in France If the notaire is any good he or she will explain the clauses in the contract to you and their implications. That is their job.  Intead of having second notaires and Brit lawyers it would have been better to have a decent translation done and a translator present at the signing. IMNVHO   Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.    Report

01/04/2008, 19:09 darnsarf Joined on 19/01/2006 31 (just) Posts 107 Re: Selling our house in France Thanks JT. I agree there's no hard and fast rule and I was careful to avoid saying my way is best, only that it was best for me, both before and after the sale. WollyB. I agree it's the Notaire's job to explain what's written. Although I did most of the paperwork translations myself, checking tricky bits with the UK lawyers (and the Notaire 'pretested' my french before deciding I didn't need a translator at the signing!), my point was only that the Notaire is less likely to mention 'negotiable' things that are not there. So can't agree a translator would have been an appropriate alternative. But each to his/her own..    Report

01/04/2008, 19:11 Ron Avery Joined on 29/11/2004 Aveyron 12 Posts 3,205 Re: Selling our house in France They may be 'lawyers' (using the term loosely) but their role (in my view) is to ensure that what's being sold is able to be sold and that the tax is collected on behalf of the French Gov.  I suppose you consider it appropriate to sit down with the vendor and buy a house costing hundreds of thousands of pounds over a glass of wine and handshake? Romantic and naive.   No I used a Notaire who is a highly qualified French lawyer specialising in French law to buy a house in France. However, I think this, copied from another website rather sums up the discussion don't you? "The big difference between British and French systems is that rather than buyer and seller using their own solicitors, the French notaire acts for the state, and thus is impartial. In fact the notaire is often described, rather unfairly, as an over-qualified tax collector. Some British buyers feel uneasy about having a single notaire and appoint a UK-based legal adviser, specialising in French law, to advise them and check the paperwork. This costs extra, of course.  Many of those who have done this consider it has been money well spent, while others have regarded it as a waste of time and money..............."      Why not post a sensible answer, people will appreciate it more    Report

01/04/2008, 19:48 darnsarf Joined on 19/01/2006 31 (just) Posts 107 Re: Selling our house in France OK, truce et vive la difference! I would just say that the UK lawyer I used was highly experienced, and qualified both as an Avocat in France as well as a UK Solicitor.    Report

01/04/2008, 20:01 sweet 17 Joined on 05/08/2006 charente maritime Posts 2,355 Re: Selling our house in France Darnsarf, I wasn't going to post on this thread but I want you to know that we also appointed our own UK solicitor who is an avocat in France.  Unfortunately, the "translator", introduced to us by our sellers, was less than useless.  A sort of running warfare went on between our English solicitor and the translator and I was in the midst of it all. The long and the short of it was that we had a lot more hassle and bad feeling than was necessary.  In hindsight, the solicitor who charged a thousand pounds, was not someone whom we would employ again.  The principle, however, held good.  We were new to this sort of purchase and we did learn a lot along the way. This time around (and there will be a "this time" as soon the market settles down a bit), we will not bother with a British solicitor or our own notaire.  But I still think we did the right thing; it's just that now we know how things are done a la francais and we are more confident altogether. I hear what you are saying and it's no good people telling you what to do.  You knew you had to have that extra help and I for one understand where you were coming from.  No need therefore to be apologetic or self-deprecating; you did the best for yourself at the time with the knowledge you had then and there's nothing wrong with that.    Report

01/04/2008, 20:35 darnsarf Joined on 19/01/2006 31 (just) Posts 107 Re: Selling our house in France I hadn't thought about what we might do next time round. I feel disloyal to the house just thinking about it! In truth, we sort of broke all the rules before deciding to buy it. We saw an ad in a Sunday paper, flew out, compared it against 5 others we saw on the same day (just to benchmark) and put an offer in the next day. We hadn't even seriously considered buying in France so our 'research' on the process was a steep learning curve. Maybe this drove the caution. Since then (3 years ago), we've poured squillions into the renovation (probably now making it a daft financial investment). But it's very special, I love it and hope to spend a lot more time there soon. All the above said, if I really had to do it again, knowing what I know now, I think I'd keep the UK solicitor and drop the 2nd Notaire. Our lawyer fees were very high (about 4K if I remember) and the Notaire kept on moaning about how little they earn on a house sale, compared with our 'fat cat' London lawyers. My french, whilst far from perfect, is OK (and my building terms vocab has improved enormously!) so it's more the 'put me first' bit that I'd want again, and would be prepared to pay for. If I couldn't afford the UK lawyer, I'd probably opt for the 2nd Notaire option. Not really sure why!    Report

01/04/2008, 20:58 trevoraki Joined on 14/04/2007 London Posts 48 Re: Selling our house in France To the original poster. When we sold our french house last year we were very glad we had our own notaire who spoke perfect English. The buyer was French who also had some sort of connection to their notaire and although we were supposed to get paid by a certain date after completion, there was a considerable delay and it was only due to us having our own  notaire that we were able to put pressure on the buyers notaire to get our funds. My conclusion is that it is better to have your own notaire even though they dont dispense legal advice. I don't mind getting old as long as I don't have to think about it.    Report

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