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French Artisans
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 05/05/2007, 10:03
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Coco
Joined on 14/12/2005
Manche 50
Posts 699
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Both the guy that does groundworks for us and the mason we use (who have both been on courses to bring them right up to date on TVA rates) would beg to differ with Nick slightly. They would say that if the trench being dug is to house replacement pipes for old ones to the mains, then it would be at 5.5% because it is renovation. To dig a trench to make a new link to the mains then it would be at 19.6%. Same as our roofer charged 5.5% for putting a new window in an existing dormer but charged 19.6% for creating a new dormer in the extension to our house.
Support our democratic right to freedom of speech and correct a gross injustice - Free the St Malo One!
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20/06/2007, 16:17
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meboul
Joined on 20/06/2007
Posts 1
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I own my house for 6 yrs and it was built in 1930's - we are having the outside redone by a mason - it is a maison secondaire - it this a factor in the rate of TVA - he has charged us 19.6% but all other artisans up to this have charged 5.5% - we dont rent it out and do spend a lot of time there - any ideas ?
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21/06/2007, 5:56
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cadas
Joined on 30/01/2007
Posts 1
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The 5.5% issue is a bit more complicated now. The last set of documents and attestations that my accountant sent out give a long series of criteria in order to benefit from 5.5%.
The forms appear to be trying to reinforce the point that 5.5% is for repair not renovation, the main disclaimers included:
- not affecting foundations or structure
- not involving more than five or six second fix elements.
- not involving new construction or increasing the habitable area by more than 10%.
Moveable furniture is excluded but fixed items, such as a kitchen are allowed.
One area of greyness we do have is the issue of proportion, they guidance notes seem to indicate for certain items, such as windows, replacing all windows in a house is renovation, whereas replacing a proportion is repair; one form asks you to justify the 'repair' and asks for the proportion of windows being replaced in number or area.
What this all means is that it is rather complicated and especially when you are dealing with modernising second homes as much of the work being carried out is renovation, hence why many artisans charge 19.6% for simplicity.
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21/06/2007, 11:09
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Nick Trollope
 
Joined on 23/08/2004
Broons, Dept 22
Posts 2,492
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Quite so - I think that is what I said above!
To reinforce BJ's reply to meboul (and to reply to his PM to me) - 5,5% - without the shadow of a doubt!
Cadas is right in saying that Artisans often charge 19.6% for simplicity. However, they often do it because they don't understand the rules (Coco, I'd guess your man comes into this category, I'm afraid) - or they can fiddle the difference - one facture for the client, one for the TVA... Surely not?
They also run the risk of having to refund the client, then reclaim from the Hotel des Impots - never an easy task!
Always make sure your Artisan is charging you the correct rate. The Hotel des Impots will give you a definitive answer (you must insist on it in writing).
Nick www.aplaceinfrance.com
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22/10/2007, 23:38
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montagrier
Joined on 22/03/2006
Dept 24 luvin' it
Posts 97
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I believe also that if the work done effects greater than 50% of the house 19.6% is charged....no matter what the age of the house is.
We are just starting a renovation to a 30year old house and every single room will be renovated and every window and door and shutter changed. There is no planning permission needed, no new openings...we have been instructed by our acountants that the higher rate must apply because it will effect the whole house.
This is a new one on me....you learn something every 27 seconds....ohhh I never knew that!!! there you go again!
monti
www.renovations24dordogne.com
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29/10/2007, 15:41
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jetlag
Joined on 06/12/2005
Charente Maritime
Posts 312
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Re: 5.5% or 19.6% ? some clarification please!!
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Hi All
I have just read this thread and I am slightly confused (it doesn't take much these days I think its all the vino calapso!!)
Just a little history to give you the picture!!
I have just had a chap round to do a devis for the windows for phase two of our renovations. We have a permis constuire and the CdeU to change the use of the school to habitation. Now I mentioned to the chap about tva at 5.5% and I got the shrug and shake of head to say no!! In my limited french I explained that I thought tva for artisan to complete etc is 5.5% and for me to do ie ready mades from a brico etc it would be 19.6%. He then asked me how long I had owned the property, did we have permis constuire and providing the windows didn't exceed 70% of the building value, then maybe we could get 5.5%. So I, in my best french, babbled on about the numerous meetings in 2005/6 to keep the TVA at 5.5 for renovations (I think I confused him!) and that as far as I knew, it would be 5.5%. So for clarification, for replacement windows for an old school, over 100yrs old, they are extremely large (2.5m*2.5m) and going to be toughened armoured type glass as we can't have volets, what is the TVA to be charged. Is it 5.5% or 19.6% or does anyone know of a site where I can get the info, obviously for us the difference will be vast!! All other works will be carried out by us and not artisans if this helps! Any advice greatly received
Many thanks in advance
Kimberly 17
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29/10/2007, 16:34
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BJSLIV
Joined on 23/08/2004
Posts 2,503
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Re: 5.5% or 19.6% ? some clarification please!!
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Your use of the phrase "phase two" is the key element.
Has the work on phase one been completed, and notified to the authorities, so that the house could have been lived in for at least two years?
If that is the case you could qualify for the replacement of the windows as maintenance to an existing house.
If you are still converting the school and the building has never been completed as a house, then tax will be due at 19.6%. The lower rate only applies to existing houses never to conversions.
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29/10/2007, 17:42
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jetlag
Joined on 06/12/2005
Charente Maritime
Posts 312
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Re: 5.5% or 19.6% ? some clarification please!!
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Hi BJSLIV
Thanks for your reply, just to clarify, its us who have named it phase two, it is all part of the original permis construire to convert/renovate the school and houses and put a pool in ( we had an architect draw up the plans and submit the papers etc) the impots have been notified only for the completion of the houses for habitation tax purposes. If it is gonna be 19.6% then boy is it gonna hurt!!!! We can't even do it ourselves as the aspect has to remain exactly the same and you can't buy ready made 2.5m *2.5m windows in toughened armour plated type glass!!!. Thanks again
Kimberly 17
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France Forum » Owning/Running ... » French Artisans » 5.5% or 19.6% ?
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