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22/02/2007, 8:52 timc17 Joined on 31/08/2004 st savinien Posts 151 Re: How many gites to survive? Thanks for the responses so far. We are looking to buy near to St Jean D'Angely in the Charente Maritime which is where we currently live. I've been doing exactly what andyh4 has suggested - checking availability of existing gites on websites such as holiday rentals. The picture is somewhat mixed , some gites are pretty full between June and August while others are still available. This leads me onto another question. It's now the end of Feb so are the gites that currently show availability in the peak months likely to stay empty or do people really leave it very late to book their accomodation?    Report

22/02/2007, 8:53 Pancake Joined on 27/09/2006 Latus St Remy/86 Posts 179 Re: How many gites to survive? No Cassis I have not but I intend  to that at 6am Sunday morning......    Report

22/02/2007, 9:37 Eslier Joined on 02/07/2005 Posts 743 Re: How many gites to survive? Yes, it is possible to make a decent living from a gite complex and pay back a mortgage - just like it is with any other business.  The question is, do you have enough money to invest in the first place to give you the sort of business that will generate enough income ?  If you are going to borrow money to finance the purchase then you really are going to need an established business with a track record of healthy annual accounts. To make the sort of money you will need, gite complex businesses don't come cheap.  Take a look at http://www.jacwoodestates.co.uk/ and you wil see that they currently have 19 gite complexes on their books at over a million euros. This is the sort of money you are likely to need to invest to be assured of a decent income from day one. Andy has given you some good advice but it is still a risk if the business is not already up and running. I would like to explode a couple of myths: Don't worry too much about "over saturation". The best tourist areas will always have a lot of competion but it can also be an indication of good potential. Don't get hung up on how many weeks a property is let for - how much income it generates is the important factor. A smaller number of weeks at a higher income is preferable. The most important factors to consider are, in this order,: Location Product Marketing If you get these spot on then much is possible but you've still got to know what you are doing. If you get any two of the above right and mess up the third then it will all go wrong. I speak from personal experience as I have a three gite complex  and this year, my biggest concern is whether I will excede the €76k  threshold for TVA registration. Pancake -  there is no excuse for the people you contacted not to have responded to your enquiry. Don't be surprised however if you find some owners reluctant to accept a 4 month booking. The problem with winter lets in a gite is that the amount of money that can be made is minimal. By the time you take wear and tear into account it may not be worthwhile.    Report

22/02/2007, 10:19 Blanche Neige Joined on 07/12/2005 Surrey / 17 Posts 688 Re: How many gites to survive? It's now the end of Feb so are the gites that currently show availability in the peak months likely to stay empty or do people really leave it very late to book their accomodation? I think the bookings are getting later and later, in the end peak weeks do seem to fill in the Charente-Maritime. Look on the estate agents websites, there seem to be a lot of gite complexes for sale and I have a hunch that these are not all being sold by people who have run them for years and now wish to retire.   If as you say you have another income to hold body and soul together then your chances could be good. Don't get hung up on how many weeks a property is let for - how much income it generates is the important factor. A smaller number of weeks at a higher income is preferable. Eslier has made a good point Bonne Chance    Report

22/02/2007, 11:17 Llwyncelyn Joined on 14/06/2006 Posts 703 Re: How many gites to survive? Fine fewer weeks at higher rental is preferable?  Obviously the overheads have then to be met by reduced usage fine.  However if you are competing in the market place and you say you want £750 per week and the 'local' market is charging £600 and there are those in the market who are commodity buyers how do you differentiate between your gite and another? Answer presumably is by increasing the quality and fittings of the gite.  Where does that come from investment and thus the returns on investment need to be higher. If you wish for a hobby then not a problem but there is a need for another income stream which essentially supports the 'hobby'     Report

22/02/2007, 15:18 Patmobile Joined on 23/08/2004 62 & 80 Posts 521 Re: How many gites to survive? I know it only makes a small difference, but the monthly payments on a 15 year 125000€ repayment mortgage at 4% would be less than 1100€, because you obviously don't pay interest throughout on the whole original sum borrowed.  Unfortunately 4.5% is probably as low a rate as you'll get at the moment. Patrick     Report

23/02/2007, 8:15 andyh4 Joined on 15/06/2005 Cologne and Ardèche Posts 1,319 Re: How many gites to survive?  timc17 wrote: Thanks for the responses so far. We are looking to buy near to St Jean D'Angely in the Charente Maritime which is where we currently live. I've been doing exactly what andyh4 has suggested - checking availability of existing gites on websites such as holiday rentals. The picture is somewhat mixed , some gites are pretty full between June and August while others are still available. This leads me onto another question. It's now the end of Feb so are the gites that currently show availability in the peak months likely to stay empty or do people really leave it very late to book their accomodation?   I think you need to look at the slightly bigger picture.  If I have understood correctly you have examined the occupancy of individual gites/gite complexes.  This is fine and we'll come back to the individual ones later, but you need to get an overall view. First determine your catchment area - just your village?  plus the next town? plus all of the communes to the next city?  It depends on your local geography and tourist attractions.  It could be a 5km radius it could be 50km (extreme perhaps).  Basicly how far away from the local "tourist attractions" are people prepared to travel will determine the catchment area. Now add up all of the gites in the area.  What percentage of these still have vacancies?  That's the key, because when you start you will be in competition with these empty places.  You will be trying to get the next punter's reservation at the expense of the other empty places.  Once you have done that analysis, then go to the individual places and look at the details you have already collected.  Is one always full?  What is he offering that others don't - can you copy it? can you better it?  Do some communes have higher occupancy than others? why? But the starting point is what is the general market like?  If 75% of beds are empty, it doesn't matter that Maison Chere are always full, you are going to have an uphill struggle.   If only 10% are empty and some weeks it's Maison Chere with empty beds and others Beau Temps, then that will be a lot easier for you to break into the market. Andy    Report

23/02/2007, 9:39 Eslier Joined on 02/07/2005 Posts 743 Re: How many gites to survive? I'm afraid here are a couple of flaws in all this research business. Firstly, many owners of gite complexes (much more so than owners of single gites) manipulate availability calendars (rightly or wrongly but that's another debate altogether - the fact is it happens).  For example, my largest property is still available for the first two weeks in July so I also show my middle property as being available even though it isn't - reason being that I stand a chance of selling enquirers up or, if necessay later on, doing a deal. Until a few weeks ago I hadn't even updated the calendar to show any bookings at all even though most  peak season weeks have been booked since last October - reason, it's good to get the enquiries as every one is an opportunity to sell an off season break and provides me with another valuable email addres for future marketing. So, take availability calendars in general with a pinch of salt until the end of the season when you'll get a much better idea of what was booked. Secondly, I'm afraid I don't agree that you need to worry too much about looking at the bigger picture with overall availability space. There are an awful lot of people out there with gites who haven't got a clue how to market their properties or how to find the right "product". You shouldn't take too much notice of the failures it's the success stories that you are interested in and why they are so. You  will be better off finding a small number of places that appear to be doing exceptionally well (again don't look at the number of weeks booked, work out from the prices they are charging how much cash they are making). Once you have identified a pattern of success email  the owners and ask them for their advice. Most brits running successful businesses in France are very proud of what they've achieved and will be only to happy to share some of their experience with you. There's nothing to be lost by asking a honest question and hoping for an honest answer !    You need to find out if you can match the successful businesses. Good luck.    Report

23/02/2007, 20:29 Patmobile Joined on 23/08/2004 62 & 80 Posts 521 Re: How many gites to survive? I agree with Eslier.  It's quite possible to buy a property in an area that's already saturated with gites and achieve high occupancy rates and an excellent rental income.  This is because most of your competitors are dabbling in it for pocket money and don't want to, or don't know how to, run them effectively as a business. How many gites do you need to survive?  I have seen discussions on this forum where contributors say it is possible to live on 1000 euros a month income.  In that case the minimum number of gites needed to survive would be one, or two to be comfortable, provided a clued-up owner manages it like a proper business. Patrick    Report

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