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Driving
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 09/05/2008, 8:49
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ErnieY
 
Joined on 05/12/2006
Nr Prayssac (Lot)
Posts 2,964
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Looks like the market for older cars with shall we say "agricultural" pushrod and carburettor engines (the venerable B series as in my MGB for instance) could blossom ![Wink [;-)]](/cs/images/emotions/wink.gif)
I'm with you Dave, I just want cheap transport and all this eco/bio nonsense it just tinkering on the fringe of the problem.
When the country with 0.5% of the worlds population but which consumes 80% of it's resources gets it's act together in a meaningful commited way (naming and shaming not permitted but you know who I mean) then I might start to think about being more ecologically minded.
Everything is getting a bit out of hand now I feel. I'm absolutely not anti progress but I sometimes wonder just who is benefitting from it all.
30 years ago for instance 30mpg used to be a sort of benchmark for the average family cars fuel consumption and yet, despite the massive advances in automobile engineering what is it now, not much more. Nearly all the gains have been wasted in the never ending quest for more power and speed, which frankly nobody really needs, or more pointedly, can realistically use, plus increases in weight because of all the now "essential" driver comforts. Admittedly diesel technology had come on it leaps and bounds but even there there is a sting in the tail because the improvements in efficiency are just used as justification for the development of bigger and bigger vehicles which otherwise would be completely unviable. Just who need a V8 4.2l or worse, V12 5.3l as used in the Audi Q7 for instance ?
The complexity of modern cars and the resultant cost of major repairs means that their lifespan is likely to be considerably shorter than was the case for more simple designs so the frequency of repalcement and the ecological cost of manufacture must be factored in to the overall picture. On that basis it wouldn't surprise me if we were actually going backwards not forwards.
My doctor said one drink per day, I can live with that !
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09/05/2008, 12:13
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J.R's gone native
Joined on 16/07/2006
Picardie, Sussex
Posts 1,695
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I couldnt agrre more with you Ernie.
Regarding just who benefits from the eco/rechauffement mondial mantra I recommend that you read he novel "State of fear" by Michael Crichton, actually maybe you were the person that already recommended it on this forum.
I like you think that modern cars are remarkably inefficient in terms of their real purpose, moving people and their possessions as opposed to being a "lifestyle statement" I think the cynical rebadging of retro euroboxes as the "New Mini" "new Beetle" and "new Fiat 500" is a grave insult to their original farsighted designers.
I would just love to see back to back tests of the original versus the retro versions of these cars in respect of fuel efficiency, mass, drag coefficient corrected for frontal area (CDA I think) etc but of course that would never happen all the time the motoring media cow-tows to the global manufacturers.
Just think back to the original press adverts for the Mini showing how many passengers it could carry and the impressive amount uf luggage including in spaces that just dont exist in modern cars i,e, across the dash shelf, front and rear door storage within the door volume, under the rear seat in not forgetting on the boot thanks to the stays and the hinged number plate and light assembly.
Ever wondered why you have and will never see in print a photograph of the original car beside the retro version? For me the answer is more cynical than just the fact that the new pretenders look bloated and ugly in comparison to the originals.
Editted.
Re complexity, I once swopped a VW flat four engine from a MOT failure Beetle to my campervan, it took less than an hour to remove both engines, remove both sets of cooling shrouds, manifolds and heat exchangers (as they turned out to be incompatible) and refit the new assembly before beng able to drive away, this was not in a workshop but at the side of the road.
It wont be long before modern engines will refuse to operate unless talking to their original ECU, for reasons of emmisions and protetcting the environment of course!![Devil [6]](/cs/emoticons/emotion-14.gif)
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09/05/2008, 12:26
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dave21478
Joined on 04/09/2006
Tarn
Posts 139
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Hurrah! someone else "gets it"!
modern cars are such a frivolous waste of resources imo. They have the potential to be truly economical, but its all diluted down with needless gadgetry.
the newer rage of diesel engines fitted in vw and audis can give very good mpg - 55mpg or so seems to be average claimed from manufacturers for some models....but they weigh well over 1.5 tons! If they werent bogged down with useless electrical rubbish and overly insulated bodyshells the figures would be so much better.
Its a shame engine swaps arent legal here in France, as I have a serious hankering to retro-fit a modern turbodiesel unit into a classic car. This may be seen as sacrelige to the classic enthusiasts, but decent power and torque would be a pleasure to drive, and in a much lighter classic bodyshell, I would bet economy would be stunning.
who decided that fly-by-wire throttle would be better than a steel cable? who decided that my car should make up its mind when to switch its wipers and headlights on? who thought to make the engine almost inaccessible due to several black boxes full of electronic voodoo? oh, and when (WHEN not if) this stuff breaks...how am I going to fix that? spanners, screwdrivers and a hammer are outdated - you need a compter with the relevant software, a knowledge of network interfaces and a supply of exchange modules to swap out instead of actually repairing a component.
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09/05/2008, 14:12
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Bob T
Joined on 05/10/2006
Dordogne
Posts 910
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Perhaps I should go backwards too. I could change my 140 bhp 44mpg diesel 4X4, for the 2CV that I had years ago. It had 32bhp did around 35 mpg, no aircon or airbags and struggled up hills.
I think that I would rather give up driving!
Bob T 24
http://bikesindordogne.blogspot.com/
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09/05/2008, 14:16
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ErnieY
Joined on 05/12/2006
Nr Prayssac (Lot)
Posts 2,964
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Tapped a nerve have I ![Big Smile [:D]](/cs/images/emotions/biggrin.gif)
It wasn't coincidence that I mentioned the Audi Q7. I was in Germany a couple of weeks ago and drove a rented V8 version from Munich to Dusseldorf and back. Fantastic driving experience but what an obscenity. 0-100kph in 6.4 seconds and 260kph top speed achieved with ease but at a phenomenal cost. At more sedate autobhan speeds, i.e. keeping pace with the Golf's and cooking BMW's, MPG was mid 20's at best, push it to the limiter at 260kph though and it dropped to a shameful 7mpg. Yet despite it's gargantuan size, in terms of actual internal accommodation space I think my 1.9 diesel Skoda Estate would have given it a run for it's money, and be doing 50mpg + in the process.
Regarding DIY repairs, you won't even be able to open the bonnet soon dave so the subject becomes moot. And you'll have no choice but to use the authorised dealer for work either because no independant will be able to afford the mass of electrickery and special tools which are neccessary, and largely unique, for every different marque.
It's hard to remember sometimes that underneath all that plumbing and wiring, the beautifully sculptured manifolds and artistically moulded covers, there are still the same 4 little pistons just pumping up and down as they have since the dawn of the motoring era !
My doctor said one drink per day, I can live with that !
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09/05/2008, 16:47
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J.R's gone native
Joined on 16/07/2006
Picardie, Sussex
Posts 1,695
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I dont really have the time to post this but whilst repairing my towing plug for the journey tonight I used a 1985 towsure manual that had on the next page the kerbweights of then current vehicles, I couldnt resist doing a google search to make a comparison with the current models or retro versions, the results are shocking!
1985 Mini 1000 - 615kg
"New" Mini - 1175kg
1985 Nissan Micra - 665kg
2006 Micra - 1183kg
1985 Vauxhall Nova - 735kg
New Vauxhall Corsa - 1096kg
Original Fiat 500 (year unknown) - 499kg
"New" Fiat 500 980kg
In truth I reckon that the first minis and fiat 500's weighed significantly less than the above figures, I dont know the age of the Fiat but the mini had certainly gained some weight in its first 26 years but nothing compared to the next 20.
Then also consider that every individual piece of the modern cars are invariably lighter, made of plastic and irrepairable (ultrasonic welded seams instead of fixings etc) and you get some idea of how much extraneous junk is fitted over and above the purpose of transporting people efficiently.
I too would love to see the effect of a modern more powerfull and economical engine in a "proper" bodyshell, funny how the manufacturers prefer to make adverts showing their cars as lifestyle statements rather than saying "our powertrain is 120% more efficient than 10 years ago" its just that it has to carry double the weight!
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09/05/2008, 17:31
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Anton Redman
Joined on 23/08/2004
Gironde
Posts 1,925
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To be fair some of the weight gain is connected getting higher NCAP safety ratings, but IMHO both Midas and Clan shells are strong enough. The figure which always shocked me was that the Mazda MX5 was heavier than the MGB.
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09/05/2008, 17:54
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ErnieY
Joined on 05/12/2006
Nr Prayssac (Lot)
Posts 2,964
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Don't forget that the vast majority of engines are now alloy whereas previously they would have been cast iron, a potential weight saving of 50% or more.
The MGB V8 3.5l engine for instance was 40kg lighter than the standard 1.8l iron one.
My doctor said one drink per day, I can live with that !
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