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Earning a Living
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 19/04/2008, 22:15
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PaulaW
Joined on 15/01/2008
Posts 16
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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 Albert the InfoGipsy wrote: | Paula,
Will is as wise as ever, but the E101 may not be a goer so you need a plan B.
Have you spoken to anybody at your employer about your dreams/plans? Something that many permanent employees are unaware of is how much it costs a company to employ them, over and above their salary. For example, they must pay 11% employer's National Insurance contribution, so if you go freelance they save that straight away. Many firms allow 50% on top of salary for such costs so paying you 40% more could represent a saving. ![Big Smile [:D]](/cs/images/emotions/biggrin.gif)
On the other hand they may not even consider the idea of using you as a freelance at any price, so you need to establish where you stand before putting in too much effort.
You've presumably considered all the risks of freelancing, including being at the front of the queue if they need to lay people off. That said, I've been an IT freelance for 10 years, although with a succession of clients. Have a look at Jobserve.com just to see what else is out there. |
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Now that really is a different perspective to the many I've heard, thanks Albert. Both employers have both options on the table - neither want to lose me so have at least said they will take the self-employment route. That said, they are both somewhat enamoured with the prospect of 'moving into Europe' (me - in a tiny apartment in coastal Normandy = continental domination. Bless) and have said they would like me to present the positives to them. You've really helped!
I have been freelance in the UK before (as a writer, not in IT) so I have a little experience of the pitfalls and perks. I think even as an employee, these days, you're only really as secure as a period of 30 days' notice, so self-employment doesn't seem so frightening.
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20/04/2008, 7:38
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Will
 
Joined on 22/09/2004
Sussex & 50 (Mortainais)
Posts 4,732
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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| PaulaW wrote: | As I understand it, the form my employers would have to complete to apply for the E101 asks them to lie - in my case (CA3821/2 ?). They have to state that my move is temporary and estimate the date of my return, as well as stating it is their wish that I go abroad. Both my employers are sticklers for the legal side of things and that is a document that, in the unlikely event it was needed, could arguably be used as evidence in a tribunal.
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That's why it crosses into grey areas. I understand where you are coming from. I used the E101 when first in France, but then I was already self-employed in England, and taking the same contracts with me without a break, so any stretching the point was purely down to me, with no question of tribunals etc, and, anyway, I could easily justify being in France rather than England. We were genuinely not sure that it would work, so could justify the temporary nature, but Mrs Will's salaried job in France is still there some six years later. 'Lying' never came into it, but being potentially economical with the truth probably did.
It was simple to register as self employed - as profession liberale, which was done direct with URSSAF and bypassed the chambres de commerce or chambres des metiers which people will tell you you have to register through. Though I didn't fit into any of the pigeon holes so loved by French fonctionnaires. We did the registration ourselves (certain English-based companies wanted a four-figure sum for what amounted to filling in an A4 sheet of paper) and operated as a micro for the initial period, but known turnover was just over the limit for the second year so we used an accountant. The fees were, I think, around 2000€ for the year, but that included everything, and being a mixture of UK-contracted self employment and French salaried (with a lot of questions about employment matters) it was good value, particularly as cotisations were a lot lower with the accountant, despite the higher income. Incidentally, we were operating a small B&B sideline at the same time, which was treated as a totally separate micro entreprise.
Cotisations are, according to the accountant, 46% of taxable income. So it pays handsomely to make full use of allowances etc to keep taxable income as low as possible, and there are many ways a good accountant can do this. If you pay tax afterwards, it is easy to see where the 50% figure comes from. As portage companies charge commission, I would personally go for self-employment rather than portage, but it's down to individual circumstances which is best for you.
Will
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20/04/2008, 14:10
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PaulaW
Joined on 15/01/2008
Posts 16
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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| Will wrote: | | PaulaW wrote: | As I understand it, the form my employers would have to complete to apply for the E101 asks them to lie - in my case (CA3821/2 ?). They have to state that my move is temporary and estimate the date of my return, as well as stating it is their wish that I go abroad. Both my employers are sticklers for the legal side of things and that is a document that, in the unlikely event it was needed, could arguably be used as evidence in a tribunal.
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That's why it crosses into grey areas. I understand where you are coming from. I used the E101 when first in France, but then I was already self-employed in England, and taking the same contracts with me without a break, so any stretching the point was purely down to me, with no question of tribunals etc, and, anyway, I could easily justify being in France rather than England. We were genuinely not sure that it would work, so could justify the temporary nature, but Mrs Will's salaried job in France is still there some six years later. 'Lying' never came into it, but being potentially economical with the truth probably did.
It was simple to register as self employed - as profession liberale, which was done direct with URSSAF and bypassed the chambres de commerce or chambres des metiers which people will tell you you have to register through. Though I didn't fit into any of the pigeon holes so loved by French fonctionnaires. We did the registration ourselves (certain English-based companies wanted a four-figure sum for what amounted to filling in an A4 sheet of paper) and operated as a micro for the initial period, but known turnover was just over the limit for the second year so we used an accountant. The fees were, I think, around 2000€ for the year, but that included everything, and being a mixture of UK-contracted self employment and French salaried (with a lot of questions about employment matters) it was good value, particularly as cotisations were a lot lower with the accountant, despite the higher income. Incidentally, we were operating a small B&B sideline at the same time, which was treated as a totally separate micro entreprise.
Cotisations are, according to the accountant, 46% of taxable income. So it pays handsomely to make full use of allowances etc to keep taxable income as low as possible, and there are many ways a good accountant can do this. If you pay tax afterwards, it is easy to see where the 50% figure comes from. As portage companies charge commission, I would personally go for self-employment rather than portage, but it's down to individual circumstances which is best for you.
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Thanks for the sound advice, Will. The profession liberale + accountant sounds like a sensible plan. What criteria do I need to meet in order to be classified as one, do you know? Is there a site I can visit with this information on, to save you the job?
There has also been a slight development in that one of my employers has said she may be willing to second me as it seems our clients may want to sub contract some work which would involve me travelling to offices in Paris and Madrid - I wonder how I would fare with only one of my employers doing the seconding...
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20/04/2008, 14:17
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PaulaW
Joined on 15/01/2008
Posts 16
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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Also, Will (sorry) - I notice on the E101 application form it asks if all my work will be internet and home-based. Is this a trip-up? Could my answer determine if the application is turned down or not?
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20/04/2008, 14:21
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cooperlola
Joined on 05/05/2006
72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans
Posts 6,381
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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20/04/2008, 14:57
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Panda
Joined on 29/01/2008
Charente (16) and Vienne (86)
Posts 247
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Re: Employee vs Self-Employed
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Hi
When I first left the UK I was completely up front with the DWP and said I will continue to work for a UK company from home in France, they then sent me an E106. With hind sight it would seem that they made an error and should not have done this. Once you are registered as self employed here it makes no difference anyway. My E106 was also for something like 7 years, no one could ever tell me why they did that either! I think I got a someone who wanted to go home early or something, he just issued the E106 regardless of my eligibility and added a few years too!
To your other question, my accountant probably cost about 5% of my gross income although now that I've done the return for a few years last year I did it myself.
Panda
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France Forum » Living » Earning a Livin... » Employee vs Self-Employed
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