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House Renovations
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 02/07/2005, 16:41
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Nick Trollope
 
Joined on 23/08/2004
Broons, Dept 22
Posts 2,488
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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| Quote: Ok, you add water where (and how) and top it up until it comes out where? |
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Here goes! Where - at the bottom of the system (approx level with the bottom boiler connection) How - turn tap (connected to mains) Water comes out of a pipe about 50cm above the topmost pipework of the system (it is just te'ed into the return pipe to the boiler), onto the garage roof, as it happens... Make sense? Cheers!
Nick www.aplaceinfrance.com
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02/07/2005, 19:18
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Opel Fruit
Joined on 20/03/2005
Posts 339
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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It is a pseudo-sealed system. It isn't really sealed, obviously. I have seen something like this in a recent replacement - the owner had the system unsealed due to a leak they could never find, allegedly. (It was under the screed in the end, watering his foundations). I suspect the pump is set to a slow speed, and do you have a vannes melange? If so, I suspect it is almost fully set to closed. The fact that the pipe forming the overflow is in the return pipe means to me that the little circulation there is isn't pulling much air in, so the column of water in the high pipe is just about staying in the pipe. Should you increase the flow rate, by means of the pump speed and/or the opening of the mixer valve, the water in the higher pipe will get drawn into the system and air will follow. Do you find that the system takes an age to warm the rads? Does the boiler cut in and out frequently? One of the prerequisites of any system is to ensure that corrosion is controlled. This reduces the rate of corrosion caused by air, water, and the various ferrous and non-ferrous metals present. This is normally done by adding an inhibitor to the system. Sealed or not. Clearly, if you are having to top up any system regularly (more frequently than every 3-6 months), then the inhibitor is going to get diluted and thus increasingly ineffective. And are you happy with the system? By the way!
Opel Fruit, Dept. 53
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02/07/2005, 21:09
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Nick Trollope
Joined on 23/08/2004
Broons, Dept 22
Posts 2,488
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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If truth be known, I am not that happy with the system. It doesn't really get the rads that warm, but the house is rather drafty, so it is difficult to tell where the shortcomings really lie! (& yes, I know I must fix the other issues first..). I believe that the system was installed in 1983. I replaced the burner 6 months ago. We only have to "open the tap" once per season & that is mainly becuase we think we ought to - it doesn't take much to pour out of the top. The boiler doesn't cut in and out. It runs for about 20 mins & then stops for an hour or whatever (the boiler 'stat is set for 65deg - is this OK?). Pump (which I replaced 18 months ago) is set to minimum. I suppose I am steeling myself to replace all the pipework & the rather inefficient rads, in copper, rather than the iron pipe that is currently used. Any reason why I should not simply replace the pipe runs & rads? No mixer valve BTW. Ta!
Nick www.aplaceinfrance.com
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03/07/2005, 9:16
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Opel Fruit
Joined on 20/03/2005
Posts 339
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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I think replacing the rads and pipework would be an excellent idea, and add an expansion vessel and security valve/manometer at the same time to make the system sealed. These are dirt cheap - if you want to pipe them yourself, then an 18L expansion vessel will cost about 15EUR, and the valve/manometer about 7 EUR. Better still, buy the ready piped and bracketed one from Leroy Merlin for about 30 EUR, and just screw a vessel on. It's quick and simple. I would keep the pipe sizes at 22mm for distribution and tee off to 16mm around the rads. Try and get from iron to copper pipe as soon as you can after the pump and make the pipework simple. The French use top flow, bottom outlet on the rads. Personally, I would stick to Bottom/Bottom. There is no performance difference worth speaking of. Rads, assuming you want conventional steel jobbies, are cheapest at merchants (although I have just bought 17 off from Leroy Merlin for less than 600 EUR in 4 sizes, all K2s (double panel convector). They are a piece of **** to mount).
Opel Fruit, Dept. 53
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03/07/2005, 13:12
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Deimos
Joined on 15/11/2005
France
Posts 2,731
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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Very interesting and useful. Many thanks.
A couple of questions:
Central Heating. Is Furnox (or equivalent) used/common/rare in France and if so how (and where) does one add it to the system ?
How strict are the regulations re: open flues. My flue does not comply with “norms” and I’m trying to get somebody to change it (exits below roof ridge without 8m clear all round horizontally) – usual “issues” getting any artisan to actually quote/do the work. I thought that if flue is longer than 3m then max deflection from vertical is 20 degrees. However, local plumber is quite happy to deflect to 45 degrees (local plumber is pretty good and not a “bodger”). Should I just go with what he says (as he’s the expert) or try to find a max 20 degree deflection route for him to re-install to (flues are not something I would do myself).
Ian
Copyright Deimos. All rights reserved
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03/07/2005, 13:14
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Nick Trollope
Joined on 23/08/2004
Broons, Dept 22
Posts 2,488
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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OK, I'll do that, then. What is the easiest way of joining copper to the (approx 35mm) iron pipe? It would be best if I could leave the initial iron piping through the 1M thick dining room wall & start from there. Ta for the advice.
Nick www.aplaceinfrance.com
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03/07/2005, 18:01
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Opel Fruit
Joined on 20/03/2005
Posts 339
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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Anti-corrosion protection: Use Sentinel X100 (£15/1L) or Fernox MB1 (£20/4L) from the UK or look for something like GEB "Protecteur Multimetaux" (€ 25/1L) here in France. You add them by draining off the system partly (we're talking sealed system?) and removing a rad bleed valve (the whole thing) on a high rad that is empty or part empty and funneling the inhibitor in somehow. Obviously if you have another access point that is easier, use that. Then refill to 1 bar, bleed, top back up to 1 bar and Robert is definitely related to your father. Bear in mind that you should flush your system (new install or old), before adding Inhibitor, and make sure you don't have any leaks - or the stuff just comes out! The French SHOULD use inhibitor, but just as the UK heating control operatives SHOULD, they rarely do. Which is why 90% of heating systems in the UK are sludged to death. Flue: I wouldn't be overly worried about a couple of 45 degree bends. I would if there were 90 degree bends. I would get him to install it with a written Warranty, and also to verify (by measurement) the burner after installation. For peace of mind. Joining copper to iron: various ways... depends whether you have a thread to screw a fitting onto. Assuming you have, you should find a suitable 40/49 (1 1/2") or 33/42 (1 1/4") (you seem to have something in between, though I doubt it) brass or iron fitting to screw on and reduce to 20/27 (22mm pipe) or 26/34 (28mm pipe). You may have to do it in two fittings if you to 22mm, but maybe not. Best thing is to seek in the Bricos - those that have fittings like this, like Tout Faire. If you don't have a thread, the practical options are to either braze fittings on, or to ask a local plombier to come and cut you a thread. They charge (literally) beer money for this. Bund walls: not sure when the requirement became law here, but I suspect a long while ago. If you have a block wall there, it is straightforward enough to seal it with one of the rubberised or epoxy based products, IMHO.
Opel Fruit, Dept. 53
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09/07/2005, 20:44
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Wilko
Joined on 23/08/2004
84 Vaucluse
Posts 216
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RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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Hi Opel Fruit, many thanks for the info you posted, who says there's no such thing as a free lunch. I have talked to my french plumber re building a DIY solar hot water system which he connects to the hot water tank. He says no can do because the system is sealed and pressurised. As we run a chambre d'hotes most of my hot water is needed in the summer months, so if I could use solar to heat the water and somehow get it into the system it would save me a great deal of dosh. Is there a solution to this connection problem? Lastly what are your views on the most cost efficient method of heating water, with EDF's help given that demand occurs mornings and late afternoon. Thanks Wilko:
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France Forum » Building and Re... » House Renovatio... » Re: RE: Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France
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