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27/10/2007, 15:02 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 7,597 Re: Health Care reforms! It is interesting this, because I'm currently composing a letter to my leftie MEPs in the area on just this theme, because they are still proving reluctant to back Mary Honeyball's declaration.  As I see it, this is all part of the same fight, because this is an attack (albeit a minor "tip of the iceberg" part of it - I still see no evidence that French inactifs are to be barred from the CMU - although the problem is that in fact a relatively small number of them uses it as they are mainly affiliated to state healthcare through employment schemes) on state healthcare, per se.  I suspect that the president would like to see all healthcare in private hands, much like the new Dutch system. In fact, the campaign has just seen its first communication from Dutch nationals here who have received their CMU ejection letters, who have pointed out to their CPAMs that the social security website said that the reforms apply only to "Britanniques" so isn't aimed at them! I do think we need to plug away at opposition French MPs and point out the similarities between our position and theirs, and how the two are related.  We shall see... Healthcare Issues Site    Report

27/10/2007, 16:23 Deimos Joined on 15/11/2005 France Posts 2,731 Re: Health Care reforms!  rothrugby wrote: ... how can anyone be better off paying for 100% cover than paying for a complementaire?  I've yet to see any insurance quote which is less than what we currently pay, for the same level of cover. It depends a lot of your circumstances.  For example, in your own case you say "we" - which means your private insurance premiums will be twice what you (or your OH) would pay alone (so think of the impact for a single person).  Although my CPAM cover does not expire until Jan 2008, I got a quote to just check what I would have to pay and despite being on a relatively low income (from savings interest), by the time you take out the top-up costs I am just better off - and my income is no where near the €60000 mentioned (absolutely no where near). Not for me but some hypothetical numbers: Private insurance (actually what I was quoted) €2200 per year Less €720 you would have paid in top-up gives net cost of private insurance of €1480 With CMU at 8%, then the break even point is an income of €21800 (remembering the 7000€ threshold) Thus, anybody with an income of €21800 will be better off. (Might be errors and variances in the above but hopefully not massive ones) However some people will not be "a person" but two people - which shifts things.  Some people might pay more (or less) top-up (don't know as I have not yet "got round" to sorting one out - I've only lived here 4 years).  However a couple will probably have a higher income so 8% represents a higher amount as well. Actually this "asset rich, income poor" category does not really exist.  If you have assets they generally generate income (unless you are a bit daft when it comes to financial matters).  You may chose to re-invest that income or you may have the assets "tied-up" and acquiring value.  Either way, when you take the money you will pay 8% to the CMU.  Maybe a few lean years whilst the assets gain in value but cash then in and the CMU does well that year.  Even a simplistic  sell-up for £300 000 and move to your holiday home in France gives you an income of €27000 per year in a regular bank deposit. Thus, my theory is that quite a few individuals will be better off under the new regime.  But there are loads of issues raised by these changes that will affect a lot of people badly, even in only in indirect ways.  As Tony and others say, this is an injustice to theose with pre-existing conditions and chronic illnesses so we all need to "stick out necks out".  I personally do not want a private company whose only interest is making a profit deciding what treatments I can and cannot have - when every cent they spend on me is a cent less profit for them. Also, this issue has raised issues relating to the French governments attitude to British residents.  The fact that they think they can ignore obligatory EU legislation (5 year thing) when it suits them needs to be "corrected".  The fact that somebody is using the issue for political gain needs to be "corrected".  Personally I think there are French politicians spreading the "why should the Brits get health care without contributing" thing.  There are too many people and MEPs thinking this way for it to be a mis-understanding. I definately think it is a battle worth fighting and one that we should fight for moral reasons.  Society really should be able to care for those who have the misfortune to fall ill. Ian Copyright Deimos. All rights reserved    Report

27/10/2007, 16:50 sunshine 2 Joined on 20/09/2007 Posts 51 Re: Health Care reforms! Sorry Deimos but your figures don't make any sense to me. Although the small print will vary,  insurance companies in general are not going to pay 70 % towards the cost of GP visits, and the cost of  regular medications etc  The cost of some regularly prescribed medications for hight blood pressure, high colesterol etc are very high indeed - so you total bill for health care when out of CMU will be cost of private health insurance plus cost of GP visits and regular medications.    Report

27/10/2007, 17:04 Deimos Joined on 15/11/2005 France Posts 2,731 Re: Health Care reforms!  sunshine 2 wrote: Sorry Deimos but your figures don't make any sense to me. Although the small print will vary,  insurance companies in general are not going to pay 70 % towards the cost of GP visits, and the cost of  regular medications etc  The cost of some regularly prescribed medications for hight blood pressure, high colesterol etc are very high indeed - so you total bill for health care when out of CMU will be cost of private health insurance plus cost of GP visits and regular medications. In my example I am in good health.  I see my GP once a year for a required medical (which is a joke) and I have never got anything back for that anyway (he has no machine so for 70% of €21 I just bin the brown form). If you have a chronic illness that will sway the balance.  Remember I was not saying everybody will be better off, just that a number of people will be (I doubt anybody knows how many).  Many people are probably not on regular medications (remembering we are talking about the pre retirement age group).  It would not surprise me at all if people with existing conditions would be financially worse of.  I was talking about those without the pre-existing conditions (which I suspect will be a significant group). Pretty well everybody I know in my age group would be in a similar situation (i.e. healthy, no ongoing problems, etc.) - but then they are not affected by this anyway as they are French. The main point is not the numbers, though they illustrate the principle and are not 100 miles out, but that the "better off" group do not need to be on massive incomes as people have supposed so far.  You can be on a quite modest income and still be better off with these changes.  I think this is probably where the original Sidall's comment may have come from and maybe why there are not more people objecting to the changes. Ian Copyright Deimos. All rights reserved    Report

27/10/2007, 17:07 rothrugby Joined on 19/09/2007 Champagne Mouton (16) France Posts 89 Re: Health Care reforms! Thanks for the explanations- we don't have anywhere near the level of income you quoted ie 21800euros and as you pointed out there are two of us. We're neither asset rich nor cash rich , just a pair of ordinary people trying to get by! The quote you got seems very low compared to others we've seen- where did this come from? I'm sure others would be interested if this level of quote is realistic. We've seen quotes for way above this with lots of exclusions, as mentioned by Sunshine. Furthermore, we've seen small print that excludes payment for conditions that an insurer deemed were present although not diagnosed at the time the policy was taken out- hence excluded. We've also seen exclusions for illnesses if they require more than one treatment  i.e follow up cancer treatment as this will then be defined as chronic- another exclusion. We take your point regarding costs. However, complementaires are not allowed to exclude anything- you can make  a choice to exclude doctors appointements, dental, etc. Private insurance seems to thrive on exclusions. We have made a list of what I would be covered for and so far it includes my feet, my head but nothing in between!!          Report

27/10/2007, 17:17 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 7,597 Re: Health Care reforms! Here is one of the few policies which I have found which covers routine treatments (but only if you develop symptoms after you've taken the policy out!) http://www.exclusivehealthcare.com/File/client/Plan%20Platine%202007.pdf The cost of this for the 2 of us is about 4,400 euros (one early, one late 50's) going up another 750 euros next year when my o/h reaches the magic age of 60.  But note, there is an excess of 120 euros per claim - so that knocks out most "routine" doctor and dentists visits - currently the only things we ever use ours for! Our top-up for the two of us is about 1,200 euros a year.  Ergo, we'd have had to be paying 3,200 (3,950 next year) euros to the CPAM currently for full private healthcare to be cheaper.  We have found a cheaper policy, with the kinds of premiums Deimos quotes, but they cover hospital care only.  I reckon (with my pea arithmetic brain!) that that means only those couples earning over 47k or so would be better off - and then they'd have excess to pay, and any drugs and treatments for pre-existing conditions. The new ruling clearly states "full" private cover - so those are the sort of payments the law is obliging us to make. Healthcare Issues Site    Report

27/10/2007, 17:32 Poppy Joined on 23/08/2004 Lost in the Lot Posts 632 Re: Health Care reforms! The problem is the problems with private health insurance. Firstly the insurers attitude and having to get clearance to be ill. I remember hours on the telephone trying to establish whether I would get reimbursed if I went to the Doctor. Secondly the French health sytems attitude. Once when I was admitted to hospital I had to wait 3hrs in reception while they checked with the Insurance Company that they would get paid. Also in an emergency situation husband collapsed and was near to death but they wouldn't put him in the ambulance until I went home for the insurance policy. Whatever you do keep your policy with you at all times. Also we will pay private health charges but in my opinion will not receive private health treatment. Those well off enough not to worry about paying for health insurance will find it very different in reality to popping into the Nuffield in the UK.    Report

27/10/2007, 17:43 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 7,597 Re: Health Care reforms! Once again, Poppy, the reinforces the point that it's not just about money! Healthcare Issues Site    Report

27/10/2007, 17:57 Tony F Dordogne Joined on 10/04/2005 Small village in the Dordogne, near St Cyprien Posts 1,994 Re: Health Care reforms! Sorry but I think that we're missing the point here about the French government.  The French government CAN ignore the 5 year rule, the UK ignore Euro law when it suits them as does every other government in Europe.  Spain and Greece patently do so and NOTHING has been done legally to challenge them at the highest levels in Europe. We can try to make the moral case here and raise the subject of inequality before the law.  But to do so, it may take several years for the case to reach the European Court of Human Rights, it will cost a large amount of money to get there and the result may not be a fore gone conclusion.  And if we have the sort of money available to fight this case, we've certainly got the lesser amount of money available to pay for health care, no matter what the cost. We seem to be getting two things muddled here.  Firstly, there is the moral high ground, the 'we demand to be treated equally under European law' argument which will be costly to get a final decision on.  Secondly, in the meantime, many of the people affected by these changes will no longer be living in France.  They will have moved on because they can't afford health care here and therefore the campaign will have a dwindling membership and in the end will fizzle out. We need quick wins, we need to get to the politicians that matter - the French - and get working with the French affected by this.  UK MEPs really have little influence, after all, many of us chose not to live in their constituencies any more and remember we DO have a vote in French Euro elections. Tony F Dordogne (24)    Report

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