Hi,
I noticed a new petrol station reasonably near me has started stocking E85 superethanol at 85c per litre. Running a V6 petrol car, I like the idea of going back to 60p per litre motoring again.
Ive had a quick rummage on the net and found lots of conflicting advice, but the gist is that normal petrol cars wont run on this without extensive modifications. What I could find mentioned changing fuel lines and possibly fuel pump, advancing ignition, upping the fuel rate and upping compression ratio. This is serious work to any car, and most modern cars cant easilly have ignition and fuellng changed without binning the ecu and fitting a fully re-mappable aftermarket unit. This sort of work would cost several hundred, if not thousands of pounds in parts alone, never mind fitting costs.
From what I could find, there are a couple of cars available from new which will run on this stuff. Mostly Saabs.
If this is the case, why are intermarche going to the hassle and expense of stocking this stuff, if practically no-one can use it?
OR - is what they sell in some way treated or altered to be useable in normal cars? I didnt get a proper look at the sign, I was heading out of town and scanning the price boards where I saw it. All it said was E85superethanol - 0.85€ / litre alongside the normal petrol and diesel prices.
edit - just found kits are available which seem to be a piggy-back ECU that ups the fuelling by modifying the injector pulses.
Costs seem to be around 500€
i need to research this further, but as a rough example with a 60 litre tank like mine....a 50cent saving per litre means roughly 30€ saving per fillup, so even accounting for poorer mpg on e85, within less than 20 tanks you would make back the kit price and start saving money.
thing is, I have read elsewhere that just upping the fueling without advancing the ignition is harmfull to the engine long-term, which stands to reason as overfuelling any car will lead to "borewash" which rapidly wears out piston rings and cylinders.
We too have a pump at intermarche for "bioethanol" made from betteraves (sugar beet) as I am diesel I have never looked at the price.
We are a big bio fuel area with a university specialising in new bio materials from crops etc, to my knowledge there is only one car, i think a ford focus C-max that uses the pump and that is owned by the mairie and plastered with bio end eco banners.
If it is that much cheaper I am surprised that no-one else has converted anything, especially something old with carbs and a dizzy, I am capable of it but get 65mpg from my deisel so not much incentive.
Does the 85 signify the RON octane rating? If it does ten I would suggest that the ignition would need retarding massively to avoid pre-ignition, or block/piston/head work to significantly lower the compression ratio, both of which would reduce the oerating efficiency of a modern petrol engine to such a degree as to make the savings miniscule and not worth the power loss.
If bio-fuels do take off then we are likely to see new generation engines starting to appear from the manufacturers.
Editted
GPL (LPG) seems very cheap by comparison at the moment.
i dont know what the 85 signifies, but the RON is way over 100 for bioethanol, compared to 95 for normal unleaded, hence the need to advance the timing.
I have had a qick look and to be honest, Im not that impressed with these "conversion" kits, they strike me as a bit of a bodge to fire the injectors for longer and nothing else on the engine is altered.
As you said, perhaps the thing to do would be to have an old car with points, dizzy and carbs, which would allow for easy adjustment - use this day to day and keep the vectra for longer runs where i need the comfort or for towing.
dave21478 wrote:overfuelling any car will lead to "borewash" which rapidly wears out piston rings and cylinders.
The warranty makes interesting reading with multiple "get outs":
The consumer is required to have the product installed by a specialized professional certified by the importer, as well as to maintain and regularly tune his vehicle according to the vehicle’s manufacturer instructions and not to use or drive the vehicle in a way that is detrimental to the vehicle’s reliability. Should he fail to comply with these conditions, the importer and the manufacturer would disclaim all liability.
The importer, the manufacturer and the distributor/retailer/ fitter are free of fault should any loss or damage occur, caused or suffered by the product, directly or indirectly, as a main or accessory cause, whatever its nature, may it be suffered or caused by the consumer.
Furthermore, is it not now widely postulated that the overall envronmental impact of biofuels is no lesser than that for hydrocarbons and perhaps more significantly, one mans biofuel is, or may well become, another mans empty stomach !
I was reading some bumpf from the Conseil Generale today about our regions production of cereals (we are the 1ere producteur in France), betteraves and bio-fuels.
It mentioned that the average price paid to producteurs of blé was 170 to 10 Euors per tonne, an increase of 60% this year.
Its nice to know that someone close to home is benefitting from the misery of others
It's 85% ethanol.
To get equivalent performance, it's necessary to burn more of it. That means bigger jets with a carburettor (remember those !) or remapping of the engine management system (or whatever) with fuel injection. Then maybe the ignition timing. Then your fuel system has to be compatible with the ethanol (which is polar unlike plain old regular petrol, so some plastic components might not be, unless designed for it in the first place).
The bottom line is that you have to burn more of it, so it doesn't necessarily save any money. If you believe that biofuel is a good thing environmentally then maybe it's a benefit. Also burns cleaner and has nicer emissions.
Dave
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