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04/03/2008, 14:55 rothrugby Joined on 19/09/2007 Champagne Mouton (16) France Posts 67 E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement Hi, Could anyone clarify what happens when a holder of an E121 due to long term incapacity reaches U/K state retirement age. My understanding is that the incapacity E121 has to be exchanged for a retirement E121 & that entitlement to benifits in both U/K & France would be affected. We are trying to establish the facts & procedures for the members of our association, Charente Limousine Exchange. If anyone has any information or has experience of this situation we would be pleased to hear from you. www.charente-limousine-exchange.com Tony      Report

04/03/2008, 15:46 Benjamin Joined on 21/08/2005 Vendée South Posts 1,718 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement Mrs Benjamin was in a similar situation a couple of years ago when she reached 60. Her Long Term Incapacity Benefit ceased and she moved directly on to her State Retirement pension, although what may be different is that she had a full qualifying period for her State pension. You can't have both as a pal of mine in the UK a couple of years ago discovered when he reached 65 years and he also lost his Carer's Allowance for looking after his very elderly Mum! Benjamin St Malo 1-New evidence suggests mis-trial    Report

04/03/2008, 16:16 ebaynut Joined on 06/03/2007 Posts 135 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement As I understand it, Incapacity Benefit is only available for people of working age, (and who have paid the required amount of NI contributions), who are unable to work, and therefore surrendered when you become eligible for state retirement pension, which is in effect a replacement benefit. If you are in receipt of Disability Living Allowance, this is replaced at pensionable age with Attendance allowance, neither of which is means tested, and continues to be paid during retirement, and is also one of the benefits under review by DWP regarding eligibility for exportation following the ECJ ruling of October 2007.    Report

06/03/2008, 0:16 David Joined on 23/08/2004 North Deux-Sevres Posts 352 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement I think that there is an aspect of rothrugby's question which is a very valid point, which has not yet been answered, and which may apply to many people who have been forced to take early retirement on health grounds. When a person reaches official retirement age, I am clear that monetary payments from UK such as incapacity benefit, carers allowance, old age or state pensions, etc. will change.  For example the incapacity benefit will be replaced by the state pension. However, if we consider only the benefit entitlement that an E121 brings to the holder of the E121 in France what, if any, medical benefits might change? That is, on reaching state retirement age will an E121, which was awarded due to invalidity, be replaced by an E121 awarded for reaching state retirement age? If so what are the differences in benefit under the French health system? For example, a person who has an E121 due to invalidity, will receive in France 100% reimbursement of CPAM allowed scale of charges (convention) on ALL medical items, for ALL illnesses, except blue label medicines which is 35%, spectacles and dentists.  Also any hospital, doctor or specialists costs which exceed 100% of convention are not covered. I doubt if a top up insurer would be pleased to insure such a person reaching state retirement age, particularly if they were keeping poorly and incurring a lot of medical costs.  If they did I imagine that they would charge a fortune in premiums, but I have not asked, and I am not asking that question on this thread. When that person reaches 60 or 65 will their E121, which is based on invalidity, be replaced by an E121 based on state retirement age? If so will they lose their 100% allowance?  After all they are still an invalid, and not a healthy retiree! Or does the E121 based on retirement age also give cover of 100% of CPAM approved scale of charges on all items? If not, any ideas why not? David    Report

06/03/2008, 0:25 David Joined on 23/08/2004 North Deux-Sevres Posts 352 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement Benjamin, Mrs. Benjamin seems to have direct experience of exchanging her long term incapacity benefit E121 for a state retirement age E121. If it is not too personal a question, can you tell us what, if any, differences she found in medical allowances in France based on the different E121 forms? David    Report

06/03/2008, 7:32 Benjamin Joined on 21/08/2005 Vendée South Posts 1,718 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement  David wrote: Benjamin, Mrs. Benjamin seems to have direct experience of exchanging her long term incapacity benefit E121 for a state retirement age E121. If it is not too personal a question, can you tell us what, if any, differences she found in medical allowances in France based on the different E121 forms? David There was no change at all when Mrs benjamin moved from Incapacity Benefit to state Retirement Pension at the age of 60. A new E121 was not issued by the UK nor was one requested by CPAM. Her 100% reimbursement (because her disability counts as an ALD in France) continues exactly the same. You should be aware thar even if a person receives Incapacity Benefit from the UK it does not automatically entitle them to 100% reimbursement in France. As a starting point their disability must be on the list of 30 or so ALDs. There are other points in your earlier posting which I will reply to later today. Benjamin St Malo 1-New evidence suggests mis-trial    Report

06/03/2008, 10:29 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,408 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement I was discussing exactly this point with Larry Fulton of Exclusive Healthcare.  His take on this is the same as David's.  The major implication being that one loses the 100% on any claims not related to an ALD.  Apparently, in the old days, many people never bothered to do the changeover, and just left the ICB E121 running so that they continued to get 100% on everything.  However, there has been a clamp-down recently and CPAMs are seemingly catching on and demanding the pension related E121s as soon as the appropriate age is reached.  Then the person should get top-up for all conditions not related to the ALD as the state will no longer fund them. Healthcare Issues Site    Report

06/03/2008, 11:07 David Joined on 23/08/2004 North Deux-Sevres Posts 352 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement Hi Benjamin, Thanks for your very helpful reply.  I agree with your point that receipt of an incapacity benefit does not automatically give entitlement to 100% reimbursement in France. However, if your E121 is issued for "Invalidity", then this does give entitlement to 100% reimbursement on all matters, not just the 30 or so ALDs.   Coops, I fear you have it exactly correct.  On reaching state retirement age, an E121 issued for invalidity would have to be exchanged for an E121 based on reaching state retirement age.  It seems to me that the main difference is that, as you say, the change will mean losing the 100% allowance on illnesses not on the ALD list, and having to take out top up insurance.   This seems to me to be a bit harsh, as the invalid is still an invalid, rather than a healthy retiree.  Further, a UK person (I do not know about France) having been an invalid for a lengthy period of time, the invalid's private or company pension, if they have one, is likely to be much less than that of a healthy retiree.  If the people only have the basic state pension for income, then how can they afford top up insurance?  Will the top up insurance be more expensive for an invalid than a healthy retiree? I really cannot see the justifiable reasoning of taking away the 100% allowance on non ALD illnesses, just because an invalid reaches state retirement age.  After all, there is no change in work status. I wonder if, when CPAM ask for the replacement E121, there is any way for an invalid to appeal to the UK, and request a replacement E121 based on invalidity so they can retain the 100% allowance on all matters?  Has anyone researched this aspect? David      Report

06/03/2008, 11:14 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,408 Re: E121 - Long Term Incapacity Benefit At Retirement Certainly, it is a UK matter.  If one can keep one's head down - as in Benjamin's o/h's case - then fine, but if CPAMs are clamping down then this issue will raise its head again and again. We (FHI) asked elsewhere for suggestions for where our group might go next, and I think this subject is worthy of scrutiny, at least.  I'm pretty certain this is why Mr Fulton mentioned it to me! Healthcare Issues Site    Report

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