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23/02/2008, 11:23 Frederick Joined on 19/11/2007 Vendee 85/ Dorset Posts 201 French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Does France have any islands she send her criminals off to like in the movie Papillon ?  UK Radio this morning stated there are no places left in prison  ..first time in UK history all places are taken up....so people have to be let out to make room for new ones ....A camp on the Falklands seems a good idea and deterrant to me and would provide employement for the locals .. or is that against human rights now ! .    Report

23/02/2008, 11:31 Russethouse Joined on 23/08/2004 Forum Moderator Posts 9,489 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Why on earth would you go to the expense of sending them all the way to the Falklands ? I'm not sure the Falkland Islanders need that source of employment either: http://tinyurl.com/35tehq The first person let out should be the elderly guy who isn't going to pay his 'rates' IMHO. www.quimperclub.org 99    Report

23/02/2008, 11:48 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Frederick, the reason prisons are full in the UK is that many 'petty' criminals get sent to prison by the courts, when there are many community alternatives available! Prisons should really only be used for the 'most dangerous' offenders...........those that really are a risk to the public. It's the fault of the policy makers that prisons are full................and think of how much it costs the tax payer! And sending offenders to different far away islands................didn't Britain do that with Australia EDIT: and the prison in French Guyana was 'barbaric' and inhuman "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

23/02/2008, 12:57 Frederick Joined on 19/11/2007 Vendee 85/ Dorset Posts 201 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) I believe to slash somone with a knife in the street  has now been recommended as an offence for which "Community Service " is appropriate .....  As  for Australia .. I am not  suggesting people be shipped out and left overseas ....I think that there is a need to make people think twice before they go out drug dealing or in armed  gangs  or to  to pick picket ,,,,,,The sort of life they get in prison today does not put them off the course of action they go out to undertake .....Thats what  is missing ..these people dont seem to be frightened of going to prison . What is wrong with being sent off some place to work ! some place a bit uncomfortable ,,,some place that  gives the message "Thats were you might end up "   As for the Falklands ..well the place is there ...its under our control and flights go back and forth  evey week ...Whats wrong with sending the young fit troublemakers who rob  ..or the pickpockets groups that come and pray on us out there to work on the Islands roads under the control of the Military if need be  for a  while    We could send volunteer single prison officers to go out on  a   " 6 month tour ."...assisted by other prisoners who are prepared to "Work Off " a bit of their sentence ...in trusted  support and management roles . .Well covered in the press creating such a place to serve a sentence  might make some think twice before they take the path into UK prisons ..and sending some of our visitor pick pocket teams out there  might just cause the others to rush back to Dover .. No visits..No TV ...out in the wind and rain filling in pot holes in the roads ....why not ?   We used to have Borstal Farms to have them work on ...what happened to them ?  I am not suggesting sending out  hundreds .........more .... sending out the message there exists a bad place for you to spend your sentance if you persist in being a  robbing thug   we havent got such a place at the moment have we !  .......and .....While in prison people can claim, exemption from paying council tax ! ....somthing else that needs looking at !      Report

23/02/2008, 13:25 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Frederick, There are quite a few issues involved with what you have said...............it's not as simple as that, if it was, do you not think that governments could have solved the problems. Firstly, prison has 'never' and I say 'never', been a deterent to detemined offenders! Secondly, if offenders were sent to , as you suggest, the falklands..............would the government pay for the family to visit their father/mother/son/daughter every week. Prison basically deprives someone of their liberty for a period of time...........that is the punishment! Not further punishment whilst in prison. (and definately not to punish the family) "Borstal farms to have them work on........what happened to these"......................Frederick, they didn't deter, they just engendered more sophisticated ways of committing crimes! It seems to me that you haven't really thought this through.............it's an interesting debate and I would be willing to continue.........as a criminologist (in the past) I find it fascinating and stimulating.................I would really like to know the answer, but unfortunately,despite my experience, I don't...................   "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

23/02/2008, 17:31 Frederick Joined on 19/11/2007 Vendee 85/ Dorset Posts 201 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Artsole ...I think things have been let go too far.....we are now boxed into a corner and no way out .  I know Social Services will provide transport to take wives and kids to visit  Dad in prison at the taxpayers expence ......You say we must not punish the family .....I say tough ...should have thought of the consequences before doing the crime ....if the family cant afford to visit ...then you dont get to see them ..Why should we pay through taxes for visitors transport ?  As for community service being more the way to go ....what do you do with them when they dont turn up to do it  ? ...and they  continue   with their criminal ways as soon as they leave the court building ....cant send them to Prison ....full up !.... A way has to be found to put a fear into people of going to prison..... I am old enough to remember that their was a fear of what would happen to you if you went to the Isle of Man  and  tried to mug sombody there .   I also remember the reputation of Dartmoor and The Isle of Wight  when Prisons were mentioned .who is frightened of the mention of these prisons anymore ? We now have a situation where those who have arrived on these shores with the intention of  living by crime .... I read are being rejected by the countries they came from when we try and send them back  on release from prison when we have managed to deal with them . They know who we have got and are glad to have got rid of them ....how are we going to deal with that ? .Are they to be kept given a  Comunity Service  Order every time they are arrested now and then  left on the streets to rob us ? ....In my view we have to get tough....and put the FEAR of doing time back into  Society ....Forget all the visits TV etc replace it with  a hard work sentence .An offender hearing a sentence "Twelve months hard labour served overseas ".... might just do the trick .and why not attached to some military base somewhere to be used as a work force .. Got to be cheaper than millions spent on building new prisons  to be run by the private sector .and they are off our streets !       Report

23/02/2008, 19:26 Patf Joined on 23/08/2004 SW Gers Posts 2,101 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Wasn't there some talk about creating a prison ship? Or maybe I'm imagining it. The trouble with your idea Frederick (among other things) is there aren't any more inaccessible places left in the world. Russia used to use Siberia, and Sakalin. I once read a book by Chekov about his visit to Sakalin. Not a bad place really. The other idea ,as in the bible, refuge cities. That was in the days when the aggrieved family could take revenge on the criminal, so he needed protection.Now it's the aggrieved family that needs protection    Report

24/02/2008, 11:53 artsole Joined on 07/02/2008 Vaucluse Posts 195 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) patf What are you suggesting? that we go back to 'stoneing people' and 'lepper colonies'......................in some middle east countries they still cut the arms off petty thieves, shall we resort to that as well.................or why not go the whole hog.............and crucify people/or tie heavy chains to them and chuck them in a river to see if they float....if they float they are guilty, if they drown they're not guilt........................all along the M1 we could have criminals nailed to crosses for all the world to view and abuse? How far do you want to take it? No seriously, frederick, community service isn't the only community penalty available to the courts. But this does need to be viewed from a reasoned perspective, 'knee jerk' reactions do no good at all! Governments respond with knee jerk reactions all the time..............thats why the criminal justice system is in such a mess. It's like giving a pain killer for a broken leg, initially it eases the pain and the patient is happy, but soon the pain killer wears off and you need major surgery to make it better, if not you give another pain killer...............and so on and so on. Thats what governments do to appease the general public and to gain another term in office; There has always been crime, since apes started to walk and talk...................it is human nature.............tribal in origin............although the world has progressed in leaps and bounds with technology, the humain being hasn't really moved much from 'neanderthal'. We are all a product of social conditioning, from family to friends, and then school.........add to that the psychological process which develops  throughout social conditioning, then you have a very complex person. Governments will never succesfully tackle antisocial and criminal culture.....................because it means reviewing, and changing, the whole social structure........it is known that the majority of offenders come from working class or non working class backgrounds..............the majority of crimes are committed against working class or nonworking class people. You mention 'drug dealers'.........................we live in a 'demand and supply' society, if there were no end users.............;there would be no drug dealers. Drug users come from all sections of society. My solution for that................and I am surprised how governments haven't cottoned on to this...............;there are £millions..........no billions to be earned if it was made legal and properly monitered and managed. Look what happened in the US when they introduced 'prohibition'. It ceated a whole new criminal subculture. Cannabis was originally made illegal in the US based on Racist legislation..............the majority of users were black americans...................and overnight they turned them into "criminals" This could end up like a 10,000 word essay so I have to stop......... but do continue because it is an issue for a lot of people both here in France and in Britain "L'art n'a rien de sacré, ce n'est qu'un divin prétexte humain pour séduire"    Report

24/02/2008, 12:55 Russethouse Joined on 23/08/2004 Forum Moderator Posts 9,489 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Have you heard of this guy Artsole? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/thinklocal/nosplit/crime3.xml www.quimperclub.org 99    Report

24/02/2008, 13:07 cooperlola Joined on 05/05/2006 72 - Sarthe - home of les 24 heures du Mans Posts 6,285 Re: French Island Prisons ( Papillon ) Oh, no, do carry on Artsole, this is fascinating.  I used to live near Blantyre House in my old home back in the UK.  This was a prison for long-term offenders who were within a short time of their release dates.  A number of the prisoners got involved in community projects and helped out with worthy causes locally.  One of these chaps (a convicted murderer who had a few months left of a 20 year sentence) used to help walk rescued greyhounds around the wood next to the field where I kept my ponies.  I regularly passed him on the way to his unpaid job, and quite often gave him a lift. The trust which the prison gave these people had a real affect on him, and he was a fascinating person to talk to.  The trust which had been given to him had made him think very seriously about what he had done and he was determined to live a good life when he got out.  I often wonder what happened to him.  I'm still alive to tell the tale anyway.... Healthcare Issues Site    Report

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